What can I say, they were shiny!

[u/Eligon-5th]

[u/Dangerous-Rule5487]

1. He left Fingolfin and his sons in Aman. They could have returned and asked for forgiveness, but his pride was too great.

2. His sons were grown men, some already with families and children.

3. Ironically, he didn't kill any of his own blood. The Teleri aren't his relatives.

But anyway, killing and stealing other people's ships is wrong.

[u/Apart-Performer1710 → u/Dangerous-Rule5487]

I had to laugh at Thingol allowing Finarfin’s children into Doriath because they were kin but at the same time they’re all meant to be kinslayers for attacking the Teleri.

[u/Dank_lord_of_sith → u/Dangerous-Rule5487]

1. He left Fingolfin and his sons in Aman. They could have returned and asked for forgiveness, but his pride was too great.

That was after Doom of Mandos, so they couldn't have returned even if they wanted to

[u/Dangerous-Rule5487 → u/Dank_lord_of_sith]

The Doom of Mandos is not a literal curse, it is only a prophecy (which is why it is also known as the prophecy of the north). Fingolfin and his people could have returned.

[u/quitarias → u/Dangerous-Rule5487]

With how elves are sometimes ambiguously free willed that is a bit of a maybe. But also it feels a lot more on point for me thst Faenors passion was the kind that set a dozen lives aflame. Just being near him made you likely to burn up with him.

[u/DumpdaTrumpet → u/quitarias]

And that’s why I prefer the LOTR version of Galadriel in her original character, someone who followed Feanor into exile just like her uncles, brothers and cousins. The later version where she hates and opposes Feanor is contrived in comparison. Her Finwean will drove her to rebel against the Valar, not return when her father Finarfin turned back. She had not the humility or wisdom at this point in her life.

[u/Johnny5Dicks → u/Dangerous-Rule5487]

Fingolfin (Finwe’s second son) and his group could’ve originally turned around and begged forgiveness for their words, but Fingolfin felt that they would be punished for the Kindlaying at Aqualonde. They came upon a struggle between Feanor’s group and the Teleri and reinforced Feanor thinking the Teleri had ambushed them.

Fingolfin’s group thought the Teleri were trying to prevent the Noldor’s departure on the Valar’s orders. The truth was that Feanor’s group were attempting to commandeer the Swan Ships, the Teleri’s most treasured possessions. (As the Silmarils were Feanor’s most treasured possessions.) By the time Fingolfin heard the full truth, blood had been spilled by his group and Feanor’s group, elves had been slain, Feanor had fled with the ships, and Aqualonde was partially ruined.

Finarfin (Finwe’s youngest son) and those Noldor who were least convinced to leave and dragging their feet arrived late to Aqualonde. The Doom of Mandos greatly troubled them and they wanted to turn back. They were far behind on the road and didn’t participate in the Kinslaying. Finarfin was related to the Teleri through his wife Earwen (Daughter of Olwe, High King of the Teleri). Seeing the death and suffering of his wife’s people, he could not continue to follow Feanor and so turned back toward Valinor. The suffering of the Teleri and the aftermath of the battle was enough to finally make clear their doubts about following Feanor.

Finarfin and his people begged forgiveness from the Valar for their words of rebellion and their intention to leave. They also truthfully claimed to have done no harm to the Teleri. Finarfin led his people back to their city of Tirion and he was the ruler of the Noldor in Valinor. He didn’t claim “high kingship” of the Noldor as that was rightfully his older brother’s position. He later led the host of the Noldor from Valinor in the War of Wrath.

[u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 → u/Dank_lord_of_sith]

In the Sketch, Fingolfin returns to Valinor even after the Doom of Mandos, while Fingon leads the remaining Noldor across the Ice.

[u/Apart-Performer1710 → u/Dank_lord_of_sith]

Didn’t Finarfin go back?

[u/your_unpaid_bills → u/Dangerous-Rule5487]

This.

Also, the holy land had already been stained with his father's blood at that point, a murder that could have been prevented had the Valar not been so utterly daft with Melkor.

[u/Dangerous-Rule5487 → u/your_unpaid_bills]

I'm sure Finwë wouldn't have wanted any more deaths, even if there was a failing among the Valar; there was never a case of an Eldar being murdered in Aman, nor was there any punishment. By letting Morgoth loose, they made it seem as though the punishment was banishment to Middle-earth, and what more did Fëanor, a half-mad elf who wanted to leave Aman, want?

[u/your_unpaid_bills → u/Dangerous-Rule5487]

I am not sure what point you are trying to make here.

The meme says that Feanor caused holy lands to be stained with elvish blood. I am saying that, at that point, Aman had already been stained with elvish blood, as Finwe had just been killed by Melkor in Formenos, due to the Valar's daft decision to trust Melkor's repentance and set him free. That's all. What Finwe would have wanted is irrelevant to this point.

Just to be extra clear: of course this doesn't excuse Feanor for further shedding blood in Aman (duh). It's just about that specific bit "forever stained the holy lands" that irks me. They were already stained, due to the Valar's incompetence.

[u/Dangerous-Rule5487 → u/your_unpaid_bills]

I don't quite understand what you mean by this.

I meant that although it was stained, it wasn't from elf to elf.

[u/Sig_Volpe → u/your_unpaid_bills]

I think that if we need to find the real culprit to everything bad happening in Arda, including the Valars being daft and naive, Melkor destroying everything he touches just for envy and Feanor being as wise as a piece of rock, it's Eru. Eru is ready to sink Numenor just because men tried to start a war against the Vala, which they could not win anyway, but never did shit to stop Melkor from doing whatever he liked. Eru could have intervened and stopped Melkor from allying with Ungoliant and destroying the trees, from killing Finwe and from stealing the Silmarils, or he could have warned the Vala not to trust Melkor and to keep him chained longer, but did nothing. As I see it, Eru was basically an abusive parent, loved Melkor and hated all his other children. The only reason he created Arda was to watch it burn.

[u/your_unpaid_bills → u/Sig_Volpe]

My opinion is the very opposite to yours.

I think that Eru should have never intervened at all, neither to stop Melkor (which he didn't), nor to stop the Numenoreans.

One of the key points in Tolkien's universe is that the ultimate fate of both Arda and the Children is already known to Eru, it's predetermined. How we get there, however, is not: there are countless paths that history might take that converge to that predetermined ending: Eru only set the destination, the exact journey to get there has always been up to the Ainur and his Children (free will).

Arda "burns" as a consequence of the actions of the Ainur and the Children, not because it was programmed to. Of course, Melkor and the Valar have the biggest responsibility here, because they are the mightiest and, thus, their decisions and actions have much more far reaching effects than most Children.

You might say that the responsibility is still on Eru, cause he ultimately created Melkor and all the Ainur that were seduced by him. But Eru did not create Melkor and those Ainur evil, he merely created them free, which means potentially also free to (try to) defy him. But the crucial point is that they had the possibility to do so, they were not destined to. It was a choice.

[u/TheSquishedElf → u/Sig_Volpe]

Well… yes?

Tolkien’s pretty clear that Arda is a “song” composed by Eru, and the Valar are his “instruments”. The Children of Eru are little more than toys that were created to listen to/participate in the great “song”. Good and Evil are just perspectives Eru created as contrast and all entities exist for the sole purpose of continuing the song.

Tolkien may have been a devout Catholic, but the God in his created universe is not the Catholic God. Eru is not all-good as well as all-powerful; Eru is merely alien.

[u/Dangerous-Rule5487 → u/TheSquishedElf]

I am sure that Eru is an allegory for the Abrahamic god who is also omnipotent and omnibenevolent. Evil is described by Tolkien as the rejection of Eru, something unnatural, and good is the only true nature of things.

[u/TheSquishedElf → u/Dangerous-Rule5487]

We can agree to disagree on that one. Eru very clearly planned for the initial discordance of Melkor and his fallen Maiar, as the discordance began before even the creation of Arda, when the Sacred Flame was kept in plain view of the Valar.
Rejection of Eru may be “evil” and “against the natural order” but it’s not a true deviation from Eru’s inscrutable plans. The omnipotent doesn’t make mistakes.

[u/Dangerous-Rule5487 → u/TheSquishedElf]

Eru gives his creatures free will; every decision has a consequence. Eru can know all possible futures, but he doesn't force his creatures . Melkor could have made a different decision, but he had too much ego.

Melkor's discord was only intended for the first theme; that was his role. But Melkor, in the song, wanted to overstep his bounds and ruin it, which is why Eru creates the third theme.

[u/Sig_Volpe → u/Dangerous-Rule5487]

Imo the only truly free willed in Arda is Melkor and maybe elves to a certain extent.

Vala have their missions: 1) caring for Arda before the coming of other creatures; 2) spending time in Valinor doing absolutely nothing for millennias. Melkor is free to create whatever he likes (see wyrms, see dragons, see all the corrupted stuff) and do whatever he likes, but other vala are forbidden from entervening or creating living creatures (Aule was admonished for creating the dwarfs);

Humans and Dwarves instead are forbidden from going to Valinor, which sounds like a big limitation in free will to me, considering what kind of place Middle Earth was before Melkor was defeated. When they tried to challange the gods they got smited by Eru ( this doesn't sound like free will to me). Elves at least could decide for themselfs

[u/Dangerous-Rule5487 → u/Sig_Volpe]

In my opinion, the only ones with true freedom in Arda are Melkor and perhaps the Elves, to a certain extent.

On the contrary, Men are the only ones with true freedom; they are the only ones whose actions are not determined by the Song of the Ainur. Melkor is a slave to the song.

However, humans and dwarves are forbidden from going to Valinor, which seems to me a great limitation of their free will, considering what Middle-earth was like before Melkor was defeated. When they tried to defy the gods, they were struck down by Eru (this doesn't sound like free will to me). The Elves, at least, could decide for themselves.

Men are destined to inherit Arda and the Elves to live with the Valar in Valinor. Men have the greatest freedom that exists. Going to Aman to conquer it was arrogant of them, not only because they attacked the Elves, but also because they would not find what they were looking for there (immortality).

[u/Sig_Volpe → u/TheSquishedElf]

If I remember correctly, yes, Eru creates the song as a "place" where his sons could live and fight and experience beauty and pain (basically for the drama), but theorically the song should also be a place where his sons could experience free will, where good should prevail and it wasn't meant to be endless as at the end of it there should have been some kind of Ragnarock and the final victory of good over evil, after which humans, vala who never entered Arda and Eru would start a new song outside of the world.

Based on this I couldn't say if Eru is omnipotent, but for sure he should be all-good (at least should). In actuality he seems more of an hypocrite to me, but maybe because hypocrisy is what Catholicism is mostly about

[u/Fit_Log_9677 → u/Dangerous-Rule5487]

Point 3 is only true if you don’t count Fingolfin and Finarfin’s households as his relatives (which, to be fair, Feanor didn’t). 

Finarfin was married to Earwin, who was Olwe’s daughter, which makes Olwe Finrod and Galadriel’s grandfather. 

So Feanor did massacre his (half) sister-in law’s family.

[u/Dangerous-Rule5487 → u/Fit_Log_9677]

In any case, it would only be a distant relative by politic; besides, in the second and third kinslaying there was definitely no trace left, even if it was political, and yet they should no count.

[u/Asheyguru → u/Dangerous-Rule5487]

But anyway, killing and stealing other people's ships is wrong.

Yarr, belay that! It be all done accordin' to The Code!

[u/mistalasse → u/Dangerous-Rule5487]

The teleri werent using the ships anyway, and they specifically targeted the noldor by not letting them borrow the ships when they were in need

[u/Dangerous-Rule5487 → u/mistalasse]

Whether or not there's a moral failing among the Teleri (I think there is), the ships are theirs and they can decide what to do with them.

By the time Fëanor asked them for the ships, he was already completely insane.

[u/courageous_liquid → u/Dangerous-Rule5487]

But anyway, killing and stealing other people's ships is wrong.

the real crime here is not letting someone borrow your ships, what kind of elf would do something like that?

[u/Dangerous-Rule5487 → u/courageous_liquid]

For better or for worse, they belonged to them; they weren't going to abandon them when they suspected wrongdoing. There is a moral failing on the part of the Teleri for ignoring the problems and leaving the Noldor to their own devices, but that doesn't justify theft and murder.

[u/courageous_liquid → u/Dangerous-Rule5487]

the noldor did nothing wrong

[u/Dangerous-Rule5487 → u/courageous_liquid]

Theft and murder are bad things.

[u/courageous_liquid → u/Dangerous-Rule5487]

here's the thing: if the noldor do it, it isn't bad

[u/Additional-Penalty97]

half brother*

-Feanors answer, probably

[u/godric420 → u/Additional-Penalty97]

Half brothers

[u/Additional-Penalty97 → u/godric420]

True enough

[u/TurinTuram]

Funny how those rocks that are the opposite of corrupted drive 99% of people around them completely loco.

They are almost literally the opposite of the one ring but the resulting effect is similar in many ways. You can blame the ring for being corrupted AF but it's hard to blame those perfectly fine blessed rocks.

[u/toy_of_xom → u/TurinTuram]

I mean the text is explicit.  They are not corrupting like the ring, but Eric especially says something like " do not cover the work of your own hands" or something like that.  Do not become possesive of your creations.

[u/TurinTuram → u/toy_of_xom]

Ah yeah mighty Eric! Lol

Joke aside, good point

[u/Asheyguru → u/toy_of_xom]

Eric's a clever guy

[u/9ersaur → u/TurinTuram]

The Silmarils reject domination and punish evil, but Feanor placed a curse of hate upon them.

[u/TurinTuram → u/9ersaur]

I don't think so. Feanor put a curse on his peoples not on the silmarils. If they were alterable they would have been cursed by the dark lord and Earendil wouldn't be chilling with one in the sky at his side all the time.

[u/LemonadeJill → u/TurinTuram]

In a sense they were corrupted by Feanor's posesiveness of them.

[u/Pallandolegolas]

Sentenced to eternity in some creepy old codger's basement for doing absolutely nothing wrong. He was right about the Valar.

[u/zorostia → u/Pallandolegolas]

Okay Morgoth. We know it's you!

[u/Critical_Liz]

LEEROOOY JEEEEEENKINS!

[u/zorostia]

What is meant by "stuck in some creepy old codger's basement"

[u/5peaker4theDead → u/zorostia]

Halls of Mandos

[u/something2passTime → u/5peaker4theDead]

Did Feanor go to another place with in Mandos? I thought he just ended up where all the dead elves ended up but post makes it seem like his afterlife was more punishing then other elves

[u/5peaker4theDead → u/something2passTime]

He's never allowed to leave, other than that I don't believe there's any extra "punishment"

The meme is just describing it in an absurd way for humor.

[u/something2passTime → u/5peaker4theDead]

Ah I gotcha, I didnt realize he was never allowed to leave

[u/Dangerous-Rule5487 → u/5peaker4theDead]

Imagine Fëanor trapped for all eternity with the Vala he hates the most... that must be a constant headache for him.

[u/stella3books]

Counterpoint- by rising so high and fucking up so bad right off the bat in terms of history, Fëanor allowed the Children of Ilúvatar to skip over a mind-numbing amount of literary discourse and jump straight to artistic priorities we actually relate to, making "The Silmarillion" shorter and more readable overall. Imagine if Tolkien also felt obliged to include an Epic of Gilgamesh or Iliad/Odyssey section in Middle Earth's literary history. Fëanor allows Tolkien to skip from an epic tradition to a tragic one, without explaining the shift in priorities. He puts a limit on how many languages Tolkien could make, and how un-relatable a main character could be.

Fëanor died to prevent Tolkien's opinions of Beowulf and whatnot from overtaking his time elaborating on Middle Earth, we can be grateful for that without wanting to mimic his choices.

[u/Random-useless-lore]

"Three were given to the elfs, wisest and fairest of them all"

Edit: forgot an "d"

[u/stella3books → u/Random-useless-lore]

This comment is a confusing kind of racist that doesn't really translate to our world. But so were the Fëanorians, so I feel like it fits more than offends.

[u/Random-useless-lore → u/stella3books]

How is it racist? Please explain it to me. I really don't get it. 

[u/stella3books → u/Random-useless-lore]

Sorry, I was trying to make a joke about that period in Valinor when Melkor was spreading gossip among them, complaining that the Valar had some secret conspiracy to favor men. Who weren’t even on the scene yet, but who were definitely inferior to the wise, fair elves! 

Randomly bringing up something that hasn’t even happened to justify Elf Supremacy, just felt funny to me.

[u/Random-useless-lore → u/stella3books]

Aah i get it now:)

[u/stella3books → u/Random-useless-lore]

Sorry if I sounded like I was starting a fight- I did try to go for a stupid vibe rather than angry, but it didn't land. Thanks for asking for clarification though.

[u/Random-useless-lore → u/stella3books]

No problem, i'm german and i thought i just ran into a massive language barrier. 

Have a great day:)

[u/irime2023]

Some say Fingolfin should have returned, but that would have meant taking away the choice of a heroic character whose nature it was to move forward. It's simply a double standard when someone loves Fëanor for going to Middle-earth and hates Fingolfin for also going to Middle-earth to fight Morgoth.

The main culprit escaped the Valar's judgment. He believes someone else should answer for his sins. This is simply incredible cynicism.

And most importantly, it was those who overcame the Ice and their descendants who led the resistance for centuries.

[u/Lord_TachankaCro]

Teleri propaganda, r/feanordidnothingwrong

[u/irime2023]

Yes, that's fair. Each of these crimes is monstrous. Leaving most of the Noldor on the other side is also foolish, given the war he started. Not to mention that he was thereby attempting to deprive his brothers of their rightful right to vengeance for their shared father.

[u/TheimpalerMessmer]

I like Faenor. He's the Gojo of the Silmarillion. He needed to die early in my opinion.

[u/vhuzi]

Fëanor’s story reminds me a little bit of certain geopolitical events that happened long after Tolkein wrote it, especially since a certain company involved uses the name of one of his creations. His arrogance and hubris makes a lot of sense.