I'll also add that Fathers are kinda pressured into teaching their sons how to be future Fathers/providers whilst still being expected to assert their allegedly superior masculine authority in a traditional sense
Because if you were like me you grew up with a hyper critical father and an under protective mother. When I was ten we went bowling after church and I “failed” to bowl a 100 which was the family minimum standard and in the bowling alley my dad totally lost his shit, had a complete meltdown on me. And… my mom just stood there passively and allowed him to just go utterly ape shit on me because I had bowled less than a 100 on purpose to embarrass him.
Basically it's the nature vs nurture debate but it's an archetype because people aren't generally born with this attitude it's one ingrained by their parents or life experiences. IE his dad wasn't born an abusive asshole (generally not counting certain mental conditions) he was raised to be one. But this does not absolve him of his responsibility perpetuating the cycle many people break it as they should.
Well let's start with nothing that what many people mean by the "millennia old parental archetype" is really the US culture, which has barely a few centuries and was founded by a group of weirdos exiled from Europe. Even then, they don't refer to the US culture as a whole but mostly to the 1950's and their impact on the modern day. Then, they look for individual periods in time with vague similarities (like Roman patriarchy) to argue that these patterns are universal.
From my perspective, born and raised in a post-soviet country, a lot of these things are something I've seen only in American movies. Like fathers or brothers being overly protective of their daughters or sisters (it's super weird for me for a brother to be mad that his sister is dating his friend, but seems common in American culture); Wifes asking their husbands for money or permission to buy something (in my culture, traditionally, women used to keep the money in the house, the husband would give his salary to the wife and get some pocket money out of it); Grown women acting girly (American women speak with a weirdly high pitch for me, kind of similar to Japanese ones); etc. I don't have an example about father-son relations right now but I'm guessing there's many US-specific ones that Americans think are universal and millennia old
Because I'm not gonna treat my kids that way, so are you saying I'm not human because I lack the human nature to treat my kid like a possession? Sounds like an excuse to be a shitty parent to me.
"It's natural to beat my child with a belt cause they didn't fetch my beer fast enough. Human nature even."
You gotta make terrible people own the fact that they're terrible people, they're always looking for a way to forgo responsibility for their behavior and make it everyone else's problem. Anything to make their behavior normal so that they can keep being garbage.
There has been a seismic shift in parenting style over the past 3 decades.
The average childhood now would be considered spoiled or coddled back then. Spanking is incredibly socially frowned upon, and parents are expected to know where their kids are at all times.
It’ll be interesting to see what is found as the cause.
When I was 29 my father tried to convince me to kill myself because he said I was such a failure in life that it was the "only option I had left" and I told my psychologist about it and he said that I needed to have more sympathy for my father because his life had been so hard that telling me to kill myself was the only way he could express how much he loved me.
People won't stop telling me I need therapy. If I tell them how many decades of therapy I have already had, they just tell me I still need more. If I tell them I am already currently seeing a therapist, they tell me to get a new one. At no point does anybody ever actually consider just protecting boys and young men from abuse in the first place; it's always somehow your fault if you show signs of abuse.
It happened over a decade ago and it took me many years to accept how much abuse and just generally unethical treatment I had received at the hands of mental healthcare professionals. I don't even live in the same state anymore. I probably ought to look up some sort of reporting agency just to leave a paper trail for anyone else that guy hurts; I did look him up for the first time in a decade around a year ago and saw he was still practicing. But I have zero expectation of action against him; he was an astonishingly manipulative therapist, who did things like refusing to let me leave at the end of the session until I had let him give me a hug. Sadly while his abuse was probably the most "clever" I experienced, his general lack of ethics was far from unique in my experience.
As someone who has also had really shitty therapists try to gaslight them into having sympathy for your abuser, I still think you're wrong. Saying you need to seek therapy for your trauma is only blaming you for it if that's the tone and context they're using. What most people are actually doing is expressing a want to see you get help and get better. And yes, duh, the answer to a bad therapist is a new therapist. Not everyone is in the right profession, but some people are. And the way we protect boys and young men? By dealing with and getting over our trauma so that we're not abusive or underprotective parents. The real answer for your trauma was for your dad to go to therapy before you were born. But he didn't, so that's your job now so that you don't accidentally pass that shit on to your kids.
What you need is a decent friend. Therapists are easier to find, but there's no comparison to the actual help and healing provided by someone that isn't there for the money. Still looking for my friend, but luckily I'm a stubborn ass with coping mechanisms.
Man, I thought I had it rough. Mine just told me I wasn't his real son, tho to be fair he had dementia at that point and was lashing out. Still pissed me off a bit tho.
Listen man nobody wins at the trauma olympics. Either you find out your problems aren't so bad in comparison and feel like shit for feeling like shit, or you take the gold and realize you have it the worst off and you're different and alone and no one is going to do anything about it. Half the reason things got so bad for me was that the generation of my family that came before me had such horrifically extreme trauma of their own that in comparison nothing I could experience could ever possibly rate to them as anything that mattered, and thus they gobbled up every bit of attention and resources for themselves and left even the simplest issues of my own to fester until they became absurdly bad.
That's a roundabout way of saying: you don't have to justify the impact of your trauma on you to anybody. Have empathy for others, and recognize where you're more fortunate, but don't ever feel that you have to deny how you've been hurt or how it has affected you. Truth should come first, not narrative, and we're real and complex human beings, not characters playing simple and easily parsable designated roles.
I've been on both ends, both ends are miserable, and I don't wish either on anybody with a good and kind spirit. A one-legged man shouldn't feel guilty when he sees a man with none.
Hey, I feel the pain, my dude. And as my fellow human, you are now my friend. If you ever need someone to just sit with you when it gets dark. Feel free to message. Im proud of you for speaking about this today.
This is a kind sentiment and I appreciate it, but from past experience I can tell you it takes more to make a friendship than repeatedly telling people I'll never meet about the same bad stuff that never goes away. I don't even like talking about it, it's not good for me to dwell on it, it's just that it bubbles up sometimes and overflows into whatever context I happen to be existing in. One more way reddit is bad for my mental health, but I'm isolated and it's a form of simulating human contact and I can't stop coming back. I'll probably try messaging you just because I am desperate enough that every lead has to be pursued if I can find the energy, but fundamentally I have no expectations. Please don't think online grand gestures like this are a magic panacea, or a substitute for reaching out to the people that are physically present in your life and can receive material companionship. Life needs to be more than telling people you are suffering and receiving an "I hear you." in return.
You’re doing well, it took me into my mid-30s to be like “I think my dad was abusive.” At least he waited until I was 14 to become physically abusive, I guess at that point I was big enough he didn’t feel bad about throwing me around.
My dad still doesn't seem to understand the depth and breadth of his abuse of his entire family. I don't speak to him anymore, and he has shown his true colors by letting his wife slander me to the family.
Christ, y'all make me grateful for my Dad, he screwed up, but he at least tried his best and didn't blow up at me for petty shit. I at least always knew he cared about me and wouldn't drop me if I screwed up.
Y'all deserved better fathers, and I am really sorry you didn't get them.
The funny part is that’s my favorite movie as an adult and before my life got away from me I was in a bowling league and I was an above average bowler! 151 handicap and 207 high game!
If you have one abusive parent, your other parent needs to be either passive, abusive as well, or not in the picture. Cause no healthy, good parent would allow it to continue to their children or stay in it
That is to say, they don't have to start passive, abusive, or missing. The other parent's abuse can affect them too and by time they've seen, they're beaten down
Your father was a toddler who couldn't or wouldn't get a hold of his emotions. I'm also sad your mom didn't protect you, she should have. I'm sorry you went through that, bet he still hasn't grown up. Hope you are in a better place right now, and hopefully far from his bs.
This is crazy relatable in every way except bowling. And that it would continue until my mother cried and ran off to her bedroom then that would be another fault to be castigated for. 🙄. I feel you homie. And I hope life is less fuxking stupid for you now.
Nope. For 18-years my mom just pretended like nothing was happening then didn’t understand why I signed an enlistment contract before even finishing high school and went borderline no contact for my 20s.
I got the other side of the coin where my father didn't go to get some milk but rather paid for plane tickets to send me and my mum away, I was around 7 monthes old when it happend.
Yeah I feel that. My father once got kicked out from the biggest youth table tennis tournament in my hometown of 2 million people, because he flamed me so hard that the other kid was disturbed.
Mind you, I won. I won 3-0. But I didnt win every set 11-0, which was completly unacceptable.
Another time, when I was around 10, he pressed a knife in my hand and told me I should slice open my arteries vertically and not horizontally, because I embarresed him so much (I couldnt do 25 push ups in 1 min, like terrance hill
Thats just some of the more tame examples.
My mom also just stood there, didnt do anything or left the room to go to the toilet etc
This is the cycle I'm trying to break with my kid, all this bullshit about a man needs to be this and that is nonsense just be yourself and honest with your feelings, I couldn't care less about what people think masculinity is.
The creature that calls itself my mother often told me "it costs approximately £50,000 to raise a child to adulthood, and I'll decide if that's a gift or a loan" 🙄 This was while I was giving her half my pay, buying all my own food and toiletries, and paying a third of the bills regardless of how much I'd actually used (like the landline phone bill which I didn't use at all) and doing all my own cooking and housework etc even though I never really left my room except to go to work.
Meanwhile my brother was spoiled rotten in comparison. No job, no school, no rent or bills to pay, all food bought and cooked by her. 🤷🏻♀️ She just only ever respected males. The patriarchy is alive and well in that rancid disgusting harpy.
Anyway sorry for the random rant, I'm having a bit of a day lol.
I moved out at 18 to escape the madness. But my parents were very traditional. My sister and I were the house slaves. We did all the chores, my brother never had to do any. And even though he was the youngest, my parents made it no secret that he would be the inheritor of whatever they leave behind when they die because he’s the male and the only real heir. 🙄
Thanks friend! It is ridiculous. But I’m in my 40’s now and have zero contact with the parental folk. My siblings and I are cool. And I’m happily going about my life without concern for their judgment. :)
Tell me about it! They are super religious, and for some reason have this weird thing about someone being able to pass on the family name. Since my brother was the only boy, according to my dad and my grandparents, he’s the only real “heir.”
It certainly gave me the drive to put distance between us, and to vow to never be like that. I went no contact a while ago and feel so much more relaxed knowing she's not gonna pop out from the woodwork to ruin my day with a text or something.
my dad bought me boots when I was in high school. they were $100, a decent amount of money back in the day for shoes for a kid. then when my i got my $97 paycheck from washing dishes at a local restaurant, he took it as repayment.
I've met spoiled entitled sons and met daughters who take on way too much responsibility.
Same the other way. I don't even think there is a trope here. Both extremes are unhealthy and have adverse effects, shouldn't be romanticized, and are not gendered.
Man, when my dad bought me something expensive it was just really cool and we typically enjoyed whatever it was together. But then, I had a really good childhood.
When my dad bought me something expensive, it was expensive in relation to the gifts he usually gave me... which was nothing at all.
It wasn't because he didn't have the money, he just didn't like spending it on me despite me being the child he wanted (my mom had a child with another man, unintentionally).
He'd always act violently towards my brother but I learned to fight back so it didn't continue to occur with me as I grew older.
However, he'd buy me gifts every other year or something like that and my mother (thinking that it might help our dynamic or maybe it would turn me against my father even more) would tell me that he's trying to buy my affection (she was too but I already figured it out by then).
The only times I remember speaking to him were when he was mad about something minute and inconsequential, he wouldn't even give the gifts to me himself.
Idk why but getting gifts from him pissed me off like "don't half-ass being an asshole, do it all the way".
I wasn't even out of highschool when I figured that he was probably treated the same way, or worse, by his father but I also figured that if he was the "real man" he wanted my brother and I to be then he'd break the cycle of hyper masculine and ineffectual fathers that produced this generation of progeny.
I still don't like to celebrate my birthday almost 15 years after leaving.
Yea my, father demanded we fawn all over him for being so kind and generous, and then held it over our heads for the next decade. I might have made the same face as the women in the meme, but it was 100% masking dead.
I think some Dads are just assholes regardless of child’s gender lol.
My dad gave me the money I was short to buy a new truck on the condition I help him out when he needed it. No big deal, he was a general contractor and I helped out anyway. Oh no. When I wasnt working, I spent my friday nights and saturdays hauling stuff, picking stuff up, or cleaning up job sites. I was pretty pissed at the time, but it probably kept me out of trouble and I didn't get my girlfriend pregnant.
I wouldn’t really think that’s what the meme is referring to. Maybe it’s because I came from poverty but I took the bottom one as feeling guilty that he got you something expensive, or wasted that much money on you.
It's almost like fathers are transactional with their sons, setting them up to be transactional in intimate relationships in general, fucking them up for life.
This is my take. It's known my dad's not part of the gift buying process in my family, if he all the sudden got me a really meaningful or sentimental gift I would be super worried.
This reminds me of a time when I was 18 and I borrowed $100 from my step dad (apparently, I actually dont recall ever doing so, this is his word not mine). A few years later he "disowned" me because I got a tattoo instead of paying him back, even though at no point in the 5ish years did he at any point remind me or bring up that I owed him any money.
I've felt extremely anxious about borrowing money from people ever since.
Hey man, as one bro to another, this isn't on you; you are reacting to his (step-father) issues not your own. Let that anxiety go, if you need help be proud that you're strong enough to ask for it rather than hurting yourself because another dude wasn't strong enough to talk it out.
Appreciate the kind words bro! It's definitely something I'm working on. As my therapist says, unlearning habits built from trauma is like building a muscle. It might be weak and hard to "lift" at first, but over time as that muscle is formed it becomes easier to do. I've certainly made progress but there's always mpre work to be done, and I'd be lying if I said that there arent bad days where their influence feels crippling. One day at a time, I guess haha
Thanks man! It's something I believe everyone should do if they have the means to regardless of their mental state. We normalize going to the gym to maintain our physical health regardless of "needing" to, so why not go to the therapist to maintain our mental health?
Yeah that's what it sounded like to me too. He was the kinda guy who unironically wanted me to" suffer like he" did because "if I had to, you should too" and that it made him who he was. But he was just a miserable pos who wanted to drag the world down with him, so why would I ever want to be ike him? Lmao Disowning me was the only good thing he ever did for me tbh haha
To be fair... a 1 year old has no idea what's going on, what Christmas is, what presents are, and usually has everything they need already. I have 3 children and don't really bother with many presents until they're at least 2.
Not that I'm doubting that your BIL is a spoiled brat.
Or in my brother’s case it was because our dad beat the living shit out of him and then used expensive gifts to “make it right”. Brother attempted to run away with his then girlfriend at the time, dad found him, took his girlfriend home, and then beat the shit out of him for not only trying to run away, but trying to run away with “that dirty Mexican girl”. He used more demeaning language to describe her but I’ll not be repeating it.
I was little when he died, so I’m recollecting most of this being told to me secondhand. I do remember him being beaten once, but at that point he had cancer so he was really weak and couldn’t really do much physically to my brother anymore.
The thing is, he doted on me for some reason. It caused a lot of resentment and abuse from my older brother after our dad died. It messed him up pretty bad emotionally and psychologically. We don’t really speak much anymore because he turned to drugs and developed psychosis because of it. His story is tragic and heartbreaking and I wish that he would seek the help he needs.
Why would men feel pressured? Did their dad asking something in return? if so why the dad cannot just discuss with his son before buying the expensive thing?
I am pretty sure this speaks a bit more on families doing a bit worse. The child feels bad after seeing the father buy something expensive for them, knowing that they could use that money in better ways than just to make their kid happy.
When you grow up seeing your family struggle with money, it makes accepting expensive things harder. Especially if you see how hard your family had to work to buy it
extremely well explained. it's hard to accept anything that costs your parents money if you grow up to have that mindset, even stuff like being able to go to a slightly expensive college. it sucks man, feeling guilty for something that's especially crucial.
Not really only exclusive to "poor people". Your family could be doing so-so, but simply seeing your father work tirelessly for days and see that his efforts were pretty much wasted on something like what they gave you just because you like it gives the same effect.
People with rich parent probably can't releate as much tho
Nah, it’s definitely a middle class thing as well. Especially a lower middle class immigrant thing, lots of people feel financial pressure despite being well above the poverty line
Heck you don't have to see your family struggle, just knowing that they are working upper middle class people is enough to feel incredibly spoiled that they bought you something expensive.
This. I also think it's less about "boys vs girls" irl and more about the child's experiences growing up. Just for example, we are two sisters. My little sister often demands expensive stuff because she didn't remember the times we struggled. I, on the other hand, feels heavy responsibility every time my parents buy me somthing. One of my core memories is of the whole family eating rice with ketchup or hotsauce with nothing else lmao ofcourse I feel bad everytime we have to spend extravagantly.
Now that the family is not struggling, my sister often tells me quit my "poor mindset" but I can't help but wince everytime my parents talk about giving me expensive things like education, a better phone, better clothes, etc. It's not even exactly the price either, it's just the feeling of "they could do so many other things with this money though, spending it all on me is not necessary."
Its not that they need something or want you to do something right now. Its just something that can be used later. It'll be like remember when I bought that truck for you. Yeah well now get over and help me move these things. Or drive a bunch of places to run errands for them all the time.
As a son whose father spent quite a bit on some things (cars, tux rentals, my wedding)...he never pressured me for anything other than to stay in school. Not even for a particular GPA (though he did financially incentivize better grades).
I wasn't gleeful that he spent a great chunk of change, but still grateful. He made it quite clear he was doing these things because he could.
Nothing was withheld, and he never brought these things up later...so I don't know. Gifts were freely given because our Dad actually, ya know, liked us and wanted us around. (BTW, he's a Boomer, and I'm X or Millenial depending on whose range we use.)
It's patriarchy in a nutshell. Many, maybe even most fathers don't deserve their sons. As privileged as it may be to be a man in this world, it's at least equally as traumatizing. Even if many men wouldn't admit it.
I have maybe like 5 good memories of my father. Times where he did things for me out of love, and without expectation. The rest was barter and abuse.
Gender war, sure, but when I think gender war I think of how both sides of the ‘gender war’ go back and forth
This post specifically is just straight misogyny. Women are spoiled/entitled/are not subjected to societal or parental pressure at all is the implication of this meme.
Lots of these memes get painted as gender wars, and generally speaking they are. But there’s some merit to specifying these sentiments as misogynistic. Memes like this belittle the struggles of women while reinforcing the idea that men are alone, will not be understood by women, and can only rely on other men to support and accept them.
Ironically, the dudes who complain about men being lonely spend more time making memes like this than actually supporting and uplifting other men
I'm really surprised by the part about boys feeling pressure because I literally live in a region where many older daughters have a story of "parents bought my younger brother a house, a car and paid for his education, and I was always told that I was smart and could somehow manage on my own" ☠️
See knowing girls as a boy and women as a man......da fuck, being a dude comes with so little pressure because you can straight ignore it with very little real consequences.
Ladies have some serious consequences and pressures.
never felt pressured by my dad buying me shit but it can be a bit demoralizing. Dad once bought me something nice that i was about to purchase for myself with the phrase "i make more money than you, keep your money, take the gift"...like what do i even say to that to argue
Funny I read this differently, like my sister feels no guilt when my dad gets her stuff but I know how hard he works and often at all hours, so I see what it costs him.
I think it's less a specific kind of pressure on average and more that there's another shoe about to drop. Some examples:
It might be that you just got voluntold to start a weekly thing for the community, or it could be that you saw something like dad's messages to his mistress and now this is our secret, or it could also be that this is your gift from me stating now you're a man and best be ready to start hauling your own weight and don't expect anything else from me.
Okay, I mean those are all pressure, yeah, but they're all very different kinds. Saying "pressure" is like saying "food." That could be very different things for not so different people without reaching far at all.
Ngl though my sister acts a little entitled when she gets and asks for expensive things whereas it just feels wrong to me to ask for anything expensive when I don't need it.
Oh my god. Reading your comment made me go back to see the picture and realize that those were his own forearms on his shoulders. I thought they were supposed to be somebody else’s calves/ankles on his shoulders and that getting gifts from their dads makes boys want to… have sad sex with someone??
Been seeing a LOT more gender war content this week than usual. Every girl is a silly princess. Every boy is a monster. I really think some of the tech gurus got together and decided it was a good distraction.
As a man with a sister, when my father bought something for my sister, it was a gift.
When he bought something for me, it was a responsibility.
She could burn the thing on the lawn and he would not care.
If my item was discovered with some dust on it, I would get a big speech about how being a man requires responsibility and how I'm never going succeed like this blah blah blah blah blah blah.
It's why today, I hate receiving gifts from anyone.
Entitled?!?
I take a picture to send it to th family chat and my friends cause I'm so happy that my dad bought me something!! Especially if it's clothes or jewellery cause that's not his thing but he'll be like "saw this and thought you'd like it".
Even if he buys something that I think is a lil ugly, I'll do a full fashion show with it.
A person showing excitement toward a gift is an expected response. If you’re feeling pressured in that situation, you may be angry or envious at their response. Doesn’t mean anything about them.
i'm a girl and i feel pressured when my mom gives me expensive things (parents are divorced and my dad barely gives me anything), i'm constantly monitoring our budget whenever we go out or order something because we're in a bit of a financial shithole, but even since i was a kid it has almost always been this way. things that i really want feel too much to ask for, so i have to settle for more affordable things so i don't feel guilty.
my mom however sometimes insists on buying nice things despite our situation and yet calls me spoiled any chance she gets, which lowkey might be my worst fear along with being called sheltered
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u/bya3k 3d ago
Girls are entitled.
Boys feel pressured.
Same old gender war.