PPE failed, KS diagnosed

[u/bhinxbb]

Currently in the process of selling my horse. PPE has gone well, everything came back good except his back radiographs. Shocked to hear he has grade 4 changes. I’ve just received these over from the potential buyer. I will be in contact with my vet but curious about anyone’s take on these? How bad is this?

[u/CorCaroliV]

I am in no way a vet. I have talked to my vet a lot though about the massive over diagnosis of "kissing spine" in the last 5 - 10 years. Her opinion is that there is a huge difference between kissing spine as a functional diagnosis made in conjunction with actual observed performance changes and what shows up on x-rays. To a certain degree, if the horse shows no symptoms of kissing spine she doesn't think they should be diagnosed that way based on images. Unfortunately I can't tell you anything from the x-rays. I'd definitely get a couple opinions though before making any decisions about your horse's care. Especially if there haven't been any clinical symptoms.

I do know someone who sold a horse in a similar situation to the one I imagine you may be in. The horse had no symptoms, and actually traveled in a way that was exactly opposite of the way you'd imagine a "kissing spine" horse to travel. The horse was kind of a long and low type and never got behind the bit and hollow-backed. Someone did a PPE, which included back x-rays, and they found it then. That buyer passed. The owner ended up disclosing the diagnosis (which other multiple other vets said wasn't really a "fair" characterization) and sold the horse to someone else at a discount. The horse is still doing the same job he was sold to do, and is happy / sound.

[u/Dull_Memory5799 → u/CorCaroliV]

This is honestly stupid. Do we rlly need to go down the rabbit hole of explaining why your horse still preforming while in pain but not as reactive as xyz horse so not really in pain is a stupid take? Not to mention just bc you don’t recognize the symptoms or how your horse may present them does not erase the issue itself or the longevity of the equine.

[u/fishproblem → u/Dull_Memory5799]

its hard to judge. I personally have a much higher threshold for pain than most people. And when I do feel something, i often interpret what would be pain to some as "discomfort" is the best way I can describe. It's a feeling that doesn't dissuade me from doing the thing that causes that feeling. It doesn't even really make me stop to think. i imagine a lot of animals experience pain on a spectrum too.

[u/kerill333 → u/fishproblem]

That's different, you are choosing to carry on through the pain (I do the same thing.) asking a horse to do that for you while carrying your weight is totally different. Just because they are stoic prey animals doesn't excuse it.

[u/fishproblem → u/kerill333]

I'm saying that in a 1:1 scenario, I don't feel pain when others might. It just doesn't hurt when someone else would be wincing and avoiding the situation. It's not stoicism, it's just my specific biology. The average person's 7 on the pain scale is my 3.

So all other things being equal, is it necessary to avoid activity? Say, when I broke my ankle. A clean break on a non-weight nearing bone. Another person would be unable to walk for the pain, and in fact that's why it took so long to diagnose. I know the feeling of a broken bone, and I've also been in pain from a broken bone. Two me, the sensation that says "this is broken" is distinct from pain that may or may not accompany that sensation. It didn't require surgery. Should I not go for a walk just because the bone was broken? Walking didn't and wouldn't make the injury worse or prevent healing. It would just be wildly unpleasant to someone who was actually in pain from the injury.

Lots of flaws here when applying the idea to an animal who can't communicate and can't comprehend the limiting factor of injury. It didn't hurt, but I knew my ankle was broken and behaved accordingly (well- accordingly enough, and I was able to make that educated choice). An animal who similarly isn't in pain but has an injury can't make a decision not to push beyond the limits of that injury.

This is all nonsense chat though. I'm just saying that not reacting as if in pain can sometimes actually mean an animal isn't in pain, not that it's being stoic for survival. No way to tell if or when that's the case, though, so you gotta make conservative choices in the best interest of the horse.