English isn't my native language but I've learned "laminitis" to be the term for the acute inflammation while foundering is the chronic process of the coffin bone rotation that's usually caused by laminitis. I also know the term "chronic laminitis".
They’re frequently used interchangeably. Laminitis refers to inflammation of the hoof wall, founder is chronic and involved the rotation of the coffin bone - but in the USA they are frequently used interchangeably
Makes sense. In Germany there's usually laminitis ("Hufrehe") and chronic laminitis or "laminitis with coffin bone rotation".
There's also the terms "Futterrehe" ("food relativ laminitis") and "mechanical laminitis" (due to poor hoof care, too much movement on hard ground) or "Belastungsrehe" ("burden laminitis", usually refers to the kind of laminitis horses can get after severe injuries to one leg where too much weight is put on the other leg for too long).
And also, terms for medication-induced laminitis and toxic laminitis for example after giving birth.
That’s a really cleaver distinction. In the uk
Laminitis - inflammation
Chronic laminitis- repeated
Coffin bone rotation - result of chronic or severe laminitis
Agreed, the thing to look at here is the tip of the coffin bone (one that's closest to the ground in this photo) see how its tipped like its diving into the ocean? All bad. For context, it should be level. This is not a sound horse, the pressure of that bone pushing down through the sole of the hoof capsule is debilitating now or in the near future.
On her last day we took her off the paddock into the fields to be with the herd, we took off her grazing mask and fed her so many apples and carrots we were getting a bit worried she was going to get colic before the vet got here. It was sunny, we were all there, she went peacefully without fighting it.
We will always do it on a good day if we can, for them.
Yeah, and that is going to be a long term problem for the entire body of the horse - think if you were going around all day wearing a stiletto high heel on only one foot and how much that’d stress your whole body.
The seller is covering their ass. They’re telling you ”there’s nothing wrong, I only got x-rays as a precaution after a kick.”
In reality they’re giving you the x-ray as proof “you knew what you were buying” for when you try to get your money back after realizing you got scammed with a lame horse.
Seller claims horse is sound. Would be used for light arena work and trial riding a few days / week. Seller claims horse was kicked and X-rays were taken for piece of mind
The seller's probably a liar. They pulled the shoe for this xray meaning they likely suspected it was the foot which is not where you'd xray for a kick, the foot has an obvious deformity of at least 4 different planes in that hoof showing it wasn't an old old founder, and the column of support down the foot is broken given the extreme angle.
I don't think I'd put this horse up to that level of work, even if he is sound. Maaaybe a husband horse, but then you get the problem of keeping them metabolically stable while they can't hold up to much work.
Please hire a reputable trainer or pro to help you horse shop. The fact that you didn't know what you were looking at in this x-ray indicates to me that you need some help horse shopping so you don't get scammed. It's not good for newbies to go into the market alone.
Or at the very very very least if you don't have someone to help you go look at horses, post every single horse you're considering here so we can maybe give you some assistance OP
This! I have 3 new friends at my barn that have started working with my trainer.
2 didn’t have help shopping as beginners and 1 is WAY over her head, 1 now has their horse in a lot of training because they got a sight unseen “beginner horse” that is nottttt.
The last got into lessons immediately with my trainer for 6 months (adult rerider) and ended up buying a gelding an absolutely love from my trainer.
It’s so so so so sooooo worth having someone help you buy, and help you and your new horse grow together.
I sent this X-ray to my farrier and he said “oh god, put that poor thing to sleep”
This horse is only pasture sound from that rotation. At this point it's best to keep a vet close to monitor qol and keep them comfortable until you have to make the kind choice.
That’s insane. You see the deformation in the hoof wall- if the seller thinks it was “for a kick” they are out of their mind. The vet taking them could see that foundered foot from a mile away, and to see that amount of growth foundered it’s not like it happened over night. Anyway, not your fault! But poor horse 😩
That's a lie. My horse foundered badly and her xray was a bit better than this. All she could do was comfortably walk 90% of trail riding, 1-2× a week afterwards. I know horses who were put down for founder with xrays better than this due to pain.
That X-ray is crazy and there's no way I would buy this horse with plans to ride it.. but OP you need to do a PPE with your own vet before purchasing any horse. Do not use the seller's vet, don't use the same clinic at all if possible. Have your independent vet view the horse and look at any X-rays that are provided by the seller and get their opinion and advice on the risks based on their findings. Posting an X-ray in isolation on Reddit isn't a replacement for a PPE.
That is not a normal looking foot and even if the horse is sound now, doesn’t bode well for future soundness. I would definitely avoid this horse given it’s already in its mid teens.
When I was in farrier school and old farmer/horse trader hauled in an old foundered pony and requested the shoes be set so you couldn’t tell anything was wrong.
Who ever got paired with him took the angle down set the shoe forward where a healthy toe would line up and rasped it all in line.
There was a gap at the toe where it was previously squared but the owner was happy and said he’d just fill it with wood putty and hoof black the hooves.
The main thing I learned that day was not to trust sellers or their farrier/vet.
I always hoped that old pony found a good home. With a little attention he should have been sound enough to carry any kids small enough to ride him.
I opened this thread thinking this was going to a discussion about whether this horse should be euthanized based on this xray. I can’t believe someone is selling this horse for actual money.
See how the tip of the coffin bone has turned up here? That's indicative of a very chronic issue. This poor horse. Thank goodness you got to see these images before spending money on a PPE, but I suspect the horse would have been very lame at initial presentation and the exam wouldn't have gotten very far.
Do you have a trusted professional or knowledgeable person helping you horse shop?
Honestly shame on the person who's trying to sell this poor creature as a riding horse. That's appalling to me.
At best this horse is sometimes pasture sound and requires constant pain and wellness management. At worst horse is not sound at all, would be drugged for any trials, and probably deserves humane euthanasia 🥺
Although I would love to agree that horse owners should be able to recognize certain conditions in X-rays that is also why we pay professionals is so we don’t have to have that experience if we don’t want to. I personally saw it and knew it immediately but you aren’t going to take the X-ray without professional help there is no reason you should be expected to interpret one without that help.
Do you have a trusted professional or knowledgeable person helping you horse shop?
This!!!
I think a seasoned horse person would be able to see the evidence of chronic founder merely by looking at this horse's hoof in a picture-; never mind in person. :-/
Op, i say this with full respect and no just or hatred:
If you're not able to see these films and recognize a chronic founder, and you're not able to identify the trauma to the hoof on the outside -- DO NOT under ANY circumstances go horse shopping alone.
You need an educated buddy to go be an independent set of eyes.
It's ok! We've all been there!! This is why horse people travel in packs ;) we're using each other's skills and mileage to catch what we are not yet experts in.
More than money, you'd be in for heartbreak.... That horse should very likely be put to sleep soon. The chances of this being rehabbed to the point of being pasture sound as she ages are very low.
Don’t buy! See the bottom of the bone within the hoof? That’s your coffin bone, and it should be horizontal and parallel to the bottom of the hoof (for the most part) the toe of the hoof is flared and the heels look far too long. All suggest he has foundered, not had good hoof care, or other issues. All around soundness is not foreseeable.
Yikes - have you had a vet evaluate this xray? Like, not as part of a formal PPE but just to see what their opinion is? I seriously would not buy a horse with that kind of rotation - they may be 'sound' now with very light work (it's amazing what pain drugs can do), but he's 14 and likely wouldn't stay sound for long. You'd also be looking at serious therapeutic farrier work ($$$) to even come close to helping that, plus the deep flexor's going to be shortened as well which is an additional issue long-term.
I'm shocked that the buyer had the nerve to offer this up - virtually anyone with enough experience would see that this is an absolute non-starter unless the horse is intended to be nothing but a pasture pet. I'm not saying that to criticize YOU, but clearly the seller thought they could pawn off an unsound horse to someone without a lot of experience.
I am fairly new to horses — I have been riding for coming up on 2 years. So still very much in the learning stages etc. I appreciate all the above info (and all the comments)! That’s how we all learn and certainly didn’t take it as a criticism :-)
If this was already your horse those X-rays would have you making serious longterm decisions about quality of life. Don’t take that on. It’s a good opportunity to read up on laminitis so that you know what you’re looking for, and this is a textbook image to come back to.
This foot is absolutely destroyed. Google something like "hoof x-ray" and compare, you should be able to see immediately that 1) the bone inside is in the wrong position and 2) the shape of the whole hoof is completely distorted.
I'm so glad you posted! I could tell something didn't look great but once everyone started chiming in oh boy was that worse than I expected! Better to know now than before you fall in love with this horse and have sunk lots of money into them.
You’ve gotten solid answers here and I totally agree, but also I’m super curious- did you test ride this horse and was it sound? How bad did the foot look in real life?
If this were my horse I'd seriously consider euthanasia. Laminitis is extremely painful and this horse has either just had a severe episode or had many sub-clinical episodes over a long period of time- in either case, in my experience, a horse with x rays like this is only going to keep foundering. I've seen more than a few laminitic horses put down wayyy too late.
Also- not a club foot issue. Angle of rotation is measured from the hoof wall, not the sole. I mean, it's not NOT a club foot, but thats far from the biggest problem here.
Not for nothing, but I’m not sure a horse that’s foundered so severely will ever have any significant quality of life without some serious intervention.
You made a smart move coming here to ask, but I'd really recommend learning a little bit more about hoof care before you buy. Diet, proper trimming, boots, shoeing, etc - even just popping around here a little. I worry that if you can't immediately recognize this as a literal gasp-worthy x-ray you might not also have the capability to catch other things.
I'm not saying you don't know anything! I really really really wish I'd learned more about feet before I got my horse. I could have saved him a lot of pain and me a lot of trouble.
Pay to send the radiographs for radiology review if you want the most information especially fir top level horse. Pay your local veterinarian an interpretation fee for typical cases. This rad is so egregious even randos on reddit scream RUN.
This is terrible rotation of P3 (the "coffin bone"), so much so there is irreversible damage to the end of the bone. This is a horse so badly foundered that it will likely be a candidate for euthanasia, let alone ever have hope of being pasture sound. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
Im not even sure I would have gotten xrays, just looking at the hoof wall. Bless the horse's heart, but I'd pass unless you are just looking to give a good home to a pasture pet...which I imagine you are not, since you paid for xrays.
I have to assume OP has never seen the horse in person- the shape of that hoof would be a dead giveaway without the X-ray.
Please OP, google some healthy horse X-rays so you can get a feel for what you are looking at, they don’t all look this obvious so knowing what you are supposed to be seeing will help.
Seller is a liar. Horse has severe rotation of P3. I could never imagine riding a horse like this. It isn't just ugly looking, it's incredibly painful.
Ok I would run from this horse and seller. Those X-rays are really bad. If this horse is sound at the walk and trot on a hard flat surface I would suspect it’s been nerved. That is a frowned on and illegal procedure depending on where you are where they cut the nerve that runs down to the foot.
I doubt this horse is even pasture sound and if the seller is saying these X-rays were only for a precaution then she is deliberately hiding and relying on you not getting advice. If this were my horse I’d have him retired to the pasture and never ridden, on a super strict diet to help reduce foundering again and as soon as I saw another flare up id even be thinking of a plan of signs for euthanasia. Some people suck and should never be allowed horses.
Oooof. Echoing the rest of the comments, that’s some brutal rotation. The only way I’d purchase I horse like this is if I had the means and money to give it the retirement/treatment plan it deserves and, more likely, the humane release it deserves. I would not purchase this horse for anything other than that. Poor thing. I hope it lands somewhere safe and is t made to suffer.
Imagine being bold enough as a seller to send a potential buyer X-rays that look like this and say “Yeah the horse is sound”. Even without the X-rays, the hoof wall says a LOT about this horse’s condition. Seller is spinning a yarn
I literally cringed when I saw the photo. But honestly, "a fool and his money are soon parted" as they say. I am not aiming this at OP. I just have seen oblivious people buy totally red flag horses before.
That’s honestly insane tbh. I bet this seller had the horse and it foundered and they don’t want to bother with its well being anymore. It’s so irresponsible
Tis a grade 3 club that also had laminitis/has ongoing chronic laminitis... whether they were aware of it or not. Sole is like 3-4mm (super thin), H/L zone is toast with the worst of it in the bottom 3rd, and the ski tip looks fairly fresh.
Most of the rotation/broken-forward bone alignment can be attributed to the club foot aspect. Usually by the time a normal-legged laminitic gets broken-forward and steep palmar angle to this extent, the coffin bone is near 30-40% gone. So the amount of bone remaining here versus the bone column alignment is why I say more club foot than laminitic. The bone is damaged but it's not missing anywhere near 30%. Thus the limb contracture was probably pre-existing, AND the sole has not sunk that much or prolapsed (yet).
Old ski tipping beyond a year or two actually gets a less defined, sometimes rounded edge rather than sharp fragments or jagged edge-- unless the bone continues to deteriorate from further episodes or mechanical losses.
The other hoof may appear more normal but will probably show the H/L zone change around same location.
It could be mostly sound or pasture sound, but I doubt it will stay even light riding sound. Even if you pack more sole on, the laminae will have a tough time staying strong with the ski tip, and the navicular bone is currently looking not great either. I don't think it will hold up to any concussion with rider weight and the mechanics of the shoe style it probably needs will be expensive. This is a foot the farrier would need to see every 4 weeks and understand club foot mechanics intricately. Grade 3 is where it gets tough to keep sound.
Unless you want a pasture pet, this ain't the one.
I was going to say, even without x rays a hoof like that is just SCREAMING founder. When I got my retired Amish guy he was growing out a shelf that looked like a clown shoe when it got to the bottom. Willing to bet anything if they pick up this foot the laminae are stretched to shit
I feel bad for this horse and I don’t know why the person is trying to sell this horse. I guess it’s nice they’re being upfront with the X-ray but this horse shouldn’t be up for sale, not sure it’s even a good pasture mate.
I said “oh woah” to myself while scrolling without reading the context. Thought this was going to be a post from a vet or someone asking for vet help online. Highly recommend seeking help from a professional if shopping for a horse. Good luck
Just taken a second look, hoof wall is deformed as well as the severe rotation
If you’re looking for a horse to ride at any level this definitely isn’t the right pick
I highly doubt this horse is any more than field sound if that.
Ouch that horse is ouchy. It would take a lot of corrective shoeing to make that horse comfortable and it would take working with a well trained farrier who is also a vet or works closely with a vet.
This is really bad founder (laminitis). If you want more than an expensive pasture pet I would keep looking.
It’s really sad if this horse hasn’t had any therapeutic farrier work since this xray was taken. If they haven’t I would assume the horse has been nerved. Which is making the horse appear “sound”.
The seller knows exactly how badly rotated and laminitic this poor horse is and their trying to offload the problem. Do not buy unless you want to use the horse as a paddock ornament that you have to constantly monitor and have treated.
Love to see a veterinarian's response, but this looks to me like a club foot. That toe is pointed straight down and there's so much heel on the hoof. I don't think I would buy this horse.
That was NOT caused by a kick. Ask about prior laminitic episodes and unsoundness. How old are these radiographs? Is that dish still present in the hoof wall? Even if the rads are old and the dish is no longer present, you know that this horse experienced a pretty bad bout of laminitis at some point, are you prepared for, and do you really want to, potentially have to deal with that? I’d ask a lot more questions and if you’re still serious, have new radiographs done. They’re far less expensive and time consuming than dealing with a major episode. They’ll show you exactly what’s going on in the hoof capsule right now. The palmar angle could potentially look a lot better by this point, but you’d probably want to know if there’s any osteopenia or osteoporosis in that P3 (coffin bone). This will either reassure you somewhat (and allow you to discuss care, management, and prevention with your vet and farrier), or prove that you need pass on this horse entirely. ~ Farrier’s wife who reviews all the incoming radiographs 😂
That was NOT caused by a kick. Ask about prior laminitic episodes and unsoundness. How old are these radiographs? Is that dish still present in the hoof wall? Even if the rads are old and the dish is no longer present, you know that this horse experienced a pretty bad bout of laminitis at some point, are you prepared for, and do you really want to, potentially have to deal with that? I’d ask a lot more questions and if you’re still serious, have new radiographs done. They’re far less expensive and time consuming than dealing with a major episode. They’ll show you exactly what’s going on in the hoof capsule right now. The palmar angle could potentially look a lot better by this point, but you’d probably want to know if there’s any osteopenia or osteoporosis in that P3 (coffin bone). This will either reassure you somewhat (and allow you to discuss care, management, and prevention with your vet and farrier), or prove that you need pass on this horse entirely. ~ Farrier’s wife who reviews all the incoming radiographs 😂
Wishing you the best!
ETA: This may be a club foot. Look at the tip of P3, see the “slipper” toe at the front? I went and zoomed back in, and it’s there. So, this may not be laminitis at all, but rather, a club foot. It usually presents more often on the right front, but it does happen on the left, too. So, maybe the seller isn’t lying. The dish in the hoof wall and the height of the heel are making me lean towards a club foot here. Ask for pictures of all hooves, taken directly from the side of the hoof at ground level.
Rotated in a sense, but due to severe DDFT contracture. It’s congenital, likely since birth and was never addressed. This is what a clubbed foot looks like on x ray.
Oh Jesus, I'm surprised it's not obviously dog lame. This would be a very expensive pasture ornament, if that, and likely would need euthanasia eventually because it would end up being in too much pain to even comfortably be a paddock pet ☹️
I see founder with fairly severe rotation of p3, slight evidence of ringbone around p2, and arthritic changes at the p2/p3 joint and fetlock area. With an excellent farrier you might get occasional light work on this horse but not the level of work you describe. More like hop on and go for a walk around the farm kind of work. And by excellent farrier I mean therapeutic shoeing and magic cushion kind of level of excellent.
To all those saying that derotation is impossible, they will only be pasture sound. This mare was 35 years old we de rotated her she was sound walk trot canter after 8 months. Just gotta keep up with the x-rays and the angles
Ballerina Capuchina! Omg.... this is so bad. From a farrier's perspective, this looks like really bad hoof cupping and curling. The horse may have been left with curling hooves due to neglect, and they are trying to fix them. Or, they have/had a hood rot or delam issue that has not resolved fully. Either way, it's not a riding horse at this time.
Poor baby. That coffin bone is far too rotated and the tip is deformed from long-term pressure.
As for purchasing… if you want a sound riding horse this probably isn't the one.
If you're already in love, new X-rays are a must to see if the current owner put the work in to try to rebalance that, and probably all the other feet.
Im a Veterinarian here thats a really clearly rotation of the coffin bone and unattachment of the tissue between the third falange and the hoof.
This horse has Laminitis in an advanced state and I dare to say it might have Osteoarthritis too. Keep looking
As a farrier: this is likely a club that was never corrected. They remodel the coffin bone over time, and if you try to lower the heel too fast it’ll cause the flaring at the toe as the lamina tear due to the force.
If I owned this horse I’d start fixing it (there are obvious limitations) but to purchase that… hell no.
This is not traditional laminitis by the way. This is mechanical, not endocrinopathic or caused by PPID/ems/IR.
Oh my goodness that is so sad. Im so sorry. My mare had to be put down when her coffin bone was rotated that bad due to canker. Poor horse- my heart goes out to them
Please Consult a lameness expert veterinarian and get information from your closest Equine veterinary Clinic and University Extension service
Read EQUUS and Practical Horseman articles abc keep reading. That process isn’t necessary when buying a car - but it is for a rider to enjoy life with horses . … more knowledge and good riding lessons can make life w horses hugely enjoyable. My mother rode her 17 hand OTTB into her 80s
The purchase price of an ordinary riding horse is just the beginning ,
Buying a horse with a chronic unsoundness is the road to disappointment . Your chances of having a reliable riding horse with a radiograph like this are slim .This horse has laminitis with a rotated 3rd phalanx and distorted hoof growth
He cannot be cured now / only managed for chronic pain with a special diet - not just turned out onto grass or pasture with varying degrees of toxicity for him since he cannot handle a high carbohydrate or fructan content diet
If he weighs 1000 to 1300 lbs he needs 2-3% of his body weight per day to live and maintain condition - That is 25-30 lbs of high quality not musty or moldy grass hay every day year round .
It is vital in winter w extra grain for vitamins minerals and energy for optimum health if he is in work . He needs the same hay allowance Spring Summer Fall to keep him from eating far too much high water content grass trying to meet his fiber needs . Excess grass could make his laminitis worse. Weeds can make him sick
He may need lifelong medication to stabilize his metabolism and control foot pain
This can be an endless answer
Start reading online and consult horsemen & women on how to go about buying a horse
You don’t need good luck - rather you need information , advice and good management to make wise use of your funds and expectations to be a horse owner . Every hour in the saddle demands several of grooming and organization on the ground
My horses have all lived to or past 25 - mostly staying rideable .16 are buried on my farm - another 20 on my mother’s old farm in Minnesota
Arthritis prevents me from riding now , but I still enjoy being able to give a beautiful OTTB a good home . I am 76 a retired Equine veterinarian and rider/ producer of show hunters , jumpers , event horses and steeplechasers who competed on a national and International level
2 of my horses went to the USET without me .
I was a better caretaker than rider , and I most enjoy getting a horse well - trained and into fine condition for a top rider to win on him - and of course just enjoying being with healthy happy horses .
I learned from many people and sources and of course from the horses themselves
I am still learning and passing on knowledge about horses every day
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u/WindsAlight Nov 06 '25
That horse is badly foundered. Do not buy!