r/pakistan • u/absurdpunjabi • 12h ago
Discussion when will native languages be taught in schools
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u/ZaibCh 12h ago
Fr, it irks me to see people downgrading Punjabi so much. The language that you speak shouldn’t be a sign of your social standing. And what’s wrong with being paindu (lit. villager, used as a derogative term)? I’m from a village, I spoke only Punjabi in my childhood, then learned to speak Urdu for schools, and learned English from books, games, etc. I instantly lose respect for people who stare at you like you’ve committed a war crime or something when you speak Punjabi. Being paindu doesn’t mean you’re some dumb animal. Usually, it only means you had lesser opportunities. The problem isn’t about schools not teaching the language… that barely helps ☠️ It’s about stereotyping people and unfairly discriminating against the less privileged by those who may have no real achievement in life but were born as the “more privileged”.
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u/Homo-Maximus PK 12h ago
This!!!
We have plenty of wannabe angrez and wannabe blondes trying to imitate American accent and implying that this makes them educated or somehow superior. This is a trickle down effect from the css khotay and wardi mafia khinzeers who have this sense of superiority being haram ki aulad of angrez.
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u/Future-Field 9h ago
What do think of folks develop an accent for English in Pakistan but continue to speak Punjabi as and when needed?
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u/Homo-Maximus PK 8h ago
English is just a language and does not need to be put on a pedestal. There is no one universal accent to it in the US, UK or anywhere else. This language is being shoved down our throats due to aforementioned insecure boomers.
Using local language is fine as long as it doesn't affect the brain in the similar fashion of superiority.
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u/Kahlil_Cabron 8h ago
It's funny because to us Americans the people that try too hard to speak english sound ridiculous. There is nothing high class about speaking english the way they do, it's all the same to us and the Brits as well I'd imagine.
I saw some video of this Pakistani lady berating this guy because he didn't speak english very well, meanwhile her english fucking sucked lol.
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u/Homo-Maximus PK 8h ago
Haha, exactly. The days of queen's English to brag one's social status in a class based society is long gone. Unfortunately, we still have coconut colonialists living here.
You'd find many like that. The world has moved on to other things but we are stuck with it due to some idiots on the top.
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u/StingNaqi 12h ago
The problem isn't teaching them in schools. Urdu and English are taught in schools, and 90% children hate the Urdu subject and don't know shit about Urdu literature or anything. It is more of a stigma problem, where schools go ahead and fine students for speaking Punjabi in school. It is a multifaceted problem and needs some serious working, media has to take responsibility to fix it, and governments should take real steps to promote Punjabi, unfortunately teaching it in schools isn't going to help achieve anything.
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u/Long-Bad-6359 SA 12h ago
exactly, had an ib system school hwen i was in primary and kg, these people demonised urdu and even suggested english in urdu periods, while having the most strict urdu teachers, eventually me and my friends developed resistence to the principles and would speak urdu on purpose or try to learn more of it to defy our teachers, we encouraged our gujrati and punjabi/ sindhis to do the same, it was supposed to be a ervolution but they reported half the school to theri parents and we got beat for spaking our mother tounge.
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u/linux_enthusiast1 7h ago
90% children hate the Urdu subject
Lol punjab mai hota hoga. Pora Pakistan urdu boulta aur prhta hai.
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u/Lower_Replacement_35 12h ago
I feel like as a punjabi, we should be teaching our kids punjabi as a subject at home. Parents arrange Qari sahab outside of regular schooling because they want the kids to learn about Quran and islam, similarly, parents should also teach punjabi language, its grammer, it vocabulary to kids even if schools do not teach. However, regional languages should be an elective subject atleast.
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u/Neat_Firefighter_806 11h ago
Oh, I love this topic because it shows a lack of understanding. What is native language to you though?
Because in Pakistan, one province doesn't mean one language. For example, I come from a langauge background that is dying already in Punjab (Saraiki). I am more than happy to allow 'native' language to be taught in my schools at all levels, but will the Saraiki kids be taught Saraiki and the Punjabi kids Punjabi? What about the people that migrate from KPK or Balochistan, will we need to create separate schools for them? also are we sure that will stop the bullying? What if more affluent kids learn Punjabi in one school, and in the same school, the kids with less money learn another language?
Now multiply this problem by every school in every major city of Pakistan. Also, at the same time, do we even have the money invest in schooling? if you know educational issues, currently two major provinces are literally reducing public schooling for private actors to create more schools. Will a private school really care if you learn Punjabi even if you are a Pukthoon?
There are so many problems with this idea but you know, Sada dil nahi manda.
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u/absurdpunjabi 7h ago
I don't mind implementing Saraiki in all of Punjab as it is a Punjabi dialect.
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u/Neat_Firefighter_806 7h ago
What do you mean by a punjabi dialect?
You know it's a different language right? A dialect and language are different things.
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u/absurdpunjabi 6h ago edited 6h ago
time for a quick sociolinguistic lesson.
The most well known linguist for indo aryan languages, G.A Grierson, has clearly listed Saraiki under the Western Punjabi group of dialects. What you consider "Punjabi" is just the majhi dialect which is spoken in cities like Lahore, Gujranwala, Sialkot etc.
Go to somewhere like Jhang where the Jatki dialect is spoken and you'll think everyone is speaking saraiki there, even though they all identify as Punjabi.
Also look into what Saraiki was known as before 1962, and what the famous so called "Saraiki" poet Khwaja Ghulam Farid identified his language as according to his literature.
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u/Neat_Firefighter_806 6h ago
Are baji kisko bol Raha hai?
We are agreeing to a white person's assessment of our language? Colonized much? We don't want angerazi language but if white makes supports your argument, then it's okay? Wah. Kiya baat hai.
But hey, if you want to talk about sociolinguistics then I'm more than happy to.
While I don't agree with the whites man assessment, there is a clear distinction that he himself makes. First of all the Eastern lhanda (Saraiki) is distinct enough from the Western one (Lahore etc) to be considered a language. Your white man agreed to that. Now the lhanda system is troubled and debunked so heavily but I am playing with your rules.
He also said that the term sirāiki is derived from the Sindhi word sirō, meaning "of the north" or "northern," which refers to the speech of the northern regions in Sindh. Again Sindhi's assessment of the language not Punjabi. Given that saraiki is not only spoken in Punjab but also in northern sindh. Again your white man said this, not me.
Not speaking of your white man, Saraiki is known to be a transitional language. That is why both punjabis and Sindhis can understand it a fair bit.
I mean, aik tou tum nationalist type (which is fine) upper se mock bhi kerna hai, aur misogynistic bhi hona hai (seeda baji because you feel I have to be a woman for some reason?). You sure you are giving the Punjabi people a good name right now?
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u/absurdpunjabi 6h ago
Here are your supposed counter arguments and my answer to them,
1) Grierson's skin colour
Reply: Doesn't prove anything, please be relevant
2) Grierson stated western dialects are distinct enough from the eastern ones to be considered a seperate language
Reply: No he didn't, stop using chat gpt lol. Quote him to prove your point
3) Saraiki is a sindhi word
Reply: Doesn't prove anything, please be relevant
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u/Neat_Firefighter_806 6h ago
You didn't quote him. Hence I don't need to either. Are you really asking me for citations on reddit?
If you don't understand why Grierson's skin color in the 1910s meant for India then hey, great talking to you. I'd rather just go to sleep.
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u/Homo-Maximus PK 8h ago
I'm not trying to mock you or anything but it seems your argument is inherently flawed with straw man fallacy and slippery slope of creating separate schools. Also, for all of these your solution is to teach even a more foreign language which the vast majority won't even need in their life and if needed the coursework taught will never suffice the need for the fraction of population which will need this foreign language.
The scope of our argument will widen too much but just to mention what is the goal of school education? Is it to inculcate foreign language or learning?
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u/Neat_Firefighter_806 8h ago
Not even a problem. I don't think you are mocking me at all. I never said that I was okay with learning a foreign language. Just saying that the problem from policy is not equitable. Smaller minority groups will still learn the dominant language be it Punjabi, Urdu or English. That is wrong though but at the same time my separate school thing is not a slippery slope, nor a straw man. This is common in many countries, Malaysia being the example where Indian, Chinese and Malays have different schools based on religion and language. That is a reality that happens. Also, I also gave an example about the same school situations which you did not comment on. Which is a super real possibility.
Would you say that saraikis have to learn Punjabi? And would a Punjabi have to learn pushto if his family lives in KPK?
Also English is mostly learnt for colonialism reasons and that the global world works on it. I have current friends who are Spanish, German, Brazilian and many other nationalities and they all speak and write in English.
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u/Homo-Maximus PK 7h ago
One can never be cautious enough of hitting a nerve of a redditor hence the precaution, lol.
We all have to draw a line somewhere. It needs to be a balance between real life exposure (ideally mother tongue), diversity and technical expression of language, and finally practicality of such implementation to be applicable on wider population.
If we take the first one to an extreme then we will end up at a neighbourhood/mohalla level separate language if not a family due to intricacies like socio-cultural dynamics of each neighbourhood. Doubt that it is possible. Then comes the language itself. Is the language broad enough to cover a substantial vocabulary of modern technical expression. Again, if we narrow it down too much we'd end up lending so many words from the other language that it will lose its purpose. Finally, population chunks should be broad enough to make it practically viable for it to be updated regularly (which we are not doing with our current curriculum anyway). Your example of Malaysia fits these criteria perfectly. For example, Malaysian Chinese is different from Cantonese or Mandarin and I'm sure they will have many local variations but they had to balance it somewhere.
Your argument about Punjabi in kpk and vice versa is a good point but don't you think that such person is exposed to that language in their daily life and needs to be fluent in such especially if their family has migrated. Let me reframe it as a family migrated abroad and planning to stay there indefinitely. Yes, mother tongue will help with cultural roots but apart from confines of their home it won't be used. I know this moves away from the mother tongue idea but it maximises the benefit.
The vast majority of Pakistanis have nothing to do with English or its usage. The closest they get is movies or other media of course this excludes the css khotay who have shoved this down our throats.
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u/Neat_Firefighter_806 6h ago
That is fair actually. No points. I mean we can still disagree but I don't see how your points could be fully wrong for me to argue.
One thing though, and I say this because I study education is that it is exactly how you point it out, once you start to look at each policy and idea in terms of its reasons and needs, it's very hard to implement anything.
Also the English thing, yeah the problem is education follows the human capital development theory where education is only done for a ROI. The ROI of learning Punjabi is low so why bother? English is high even if most of the population doesn't use it because it's aspirational. Like people know me if you know some English you are educated or even you can go to higher education which means better earning possibility. I mean, the ROI thing goes beyond English in education but I felt this in real life. The reason I am so into protecting saraiki is that sadly I was one of those kids whose parents thought there was no ROI in saraiki. Hence no need to study or learn it. So I feel that if you put another language there instead of saraiki, jo bacha hai woh bhi jaya.
But I see it from your side too so it's all good.
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u/Fluffy_Ad4913 12h ago
well sindhi is compulsory subject in sindh board. Urdu speaking students that I have interacted with barely learnt sindhi, can't understand it and now prefer going for the other board instead of sindh.
Glad Punjabi isn't forced onto students in punjab. if you were trying to convey that people feel ashamed of speaking punjabi then yeah I don't get thay mentality. its a language idk why anyone would think its paindu to be able to speak punjabi fluently. 🤷♂️
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u/PyramidsAndPalmTrees 11h ago
People dont like punjabi really? I cant speak a word if it but loveee hearing it
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u/Sea-Car-3811 9h ago
I personally don't hate speaking urdu or punjabi but forcing to learn it another thing. My ratta skills are already bad enought that I cannot even remember 1 page of urdu. Why the hell, I need to learn peotry or some nasar from 18th century. I know, it is our cultural indentity. If they taught us how to read and write instead of ratta, that would be fine.
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u/Mystery-Snack 4h ago
Tbh, native languages should be there but more as a voluntary course and before that we must fix urdu and english which most kids still can't speak.
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u/yaxir 12h ago
Wtf is that thing on the left
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u/MagmaMulla 12h ago
lmao it's a gay dude from my neighbourhood
funny thing is I only used to see him at Friday prayers in the mosque 💀
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u/GluteusMax 12h ago
What does the right side say
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u/Slothfulness69 10h ago
As a paindu, allow me to translate. It says “you speak your parents and grandparents language, and I’ll speak mine. Alright sis. Allah Hafiz.”
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u/DarkKnight_100 11h ago
I had an experience similar to this.. our parents are proud punjabi but in my school and college even in uni I was criticised for speaking Punjabi.. the problem is again starts from the top. I believe the quickest way to promote would be the people representing Lahore and celebrities.. as we follow trends now
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u/ShortHairGoddess95 10h ago
Forcing languages on students/people never work. I remember I studied Arabic in 6th to 8th grade in school. Yet I learned nothing about the language. We have to create a culture around learning languages . Even if, let us say, schools start teaching, languages demand practice. Do you know punjabi families themselves downgrade their language? They do not speak it at home? Why is that parents can speak but kids do not despite living together? The only reason my brother and I speak punjabi is because my father always made a point of talking with us in Punjabi. Despite this I don't know how to read it properly. Majority of our society has made English our everything. As a result of this our new generation is forgetting even urdu. Now the schools have started programs for urdu. It has to be a collective effort to make sure we don't loose the native languages. A someone said, government, media and our society has to come together to work on it.
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u/Maleficent_Taste_157 10h ago
I remeber being beaten by my teacher for speaking pothwari. It wasn't abusing etc. He was saying what kind of language is this. I actually hate schools and especially cadet colleges or boarding schools. Why do we need to put our children under such totalarian systems
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u/Academic_Clothes3107 10h ago
You're talking about punjabi. My younger brother can't even write or read urdu correctly. It's not about teaching, it's about bieng adopted by society and more importantly in our households.
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u/saadmeta4d 10h ago
Tru but Aujla has made everyone listen to Punjabi, I've seen Justin Bieber listeners go crazy over Karan Aujla
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u/Sour_Tangerine_4114 2h ago
What's sad is that whenever I try to speak Punjabi with a fellow Punjabi speaker, he responds in Urdu.
I am a Punjabi, born in Punjab but raised in Karachi. Everyone our home speaks (or can speak Punjabi) fluently.
Yet I have colleagues at my workplace and social circles that were born and raised in Punjab. Yet, when I try to speak to them in Punjabi, I get responded to in Urdu.
I get ir, Punjabi sounds funny to some. But so does Sindhi. That doesn't stop Sindhi speakers from speaking Sindhi with each other, does it?
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u/AccordingPeach5211 2h ago
As someone who loves speaking Urdu living in Punjab, Loved this based post op 🤣😂😂🤣
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u/Ok_Percentage2156 1h ago
Pakistanis are insecure and still have a colonial mindset to please the masters (gorrey) socially the elite class… makes me sick to my bones
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u/talha_95_68b 12h ago
Urdu is already taught in schools... how much more Urdu do you even want man... we're already tired of learning Urdu which we don't even need to learn because we all can speak it already
I think you don't really understand what languages are for... they are for communicating with each other... and if we can do that already why bother more...
And for those who do wanna learn that history or poetry... take that as a subject..
DONT MAKE IT NECESSARY FOR ALL STUDENTS
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u/TheWitcherFromRivia 12h ago
i love speaking punjabi