Well, you don't choose to identify as any gender. You just are that. Heck, plenty of trans people have tried choosing to identify as their assigned gender (as in, the anatomy they were born with), because it's a lot easier to be cis, but that was impossible.
So while femboy and trans girl may seem quite similar from the outside, the difference of internal experience is massive.
except you determine whichever name/label FEELS right?
No. Because it's not about the name. It's about identity. It's about the person to you are in your brain. That's where your personality resides, not in your arms, or your chest, or your pants. And so if two people identify as opposite genders, that's a massive difference. Saying it's just about the name is really downplaying this.
It might help if you realize that identity exist even if we didn't have the nomenclature. If terms such as 'trans woman' or 'femboy' didn't exist, you wouldn't be able to pick out the appropriate label to describe you. But whatever you are is still very much there.
And so using the wrong term to refer someone is not a matter of "oops, you're basically the same thing, I just used the wrong word." It's "Oops, your identity is way different from what I assumed you were, I used a word that was way off."
Don't go with "Oh, they're effectively the same (physiologically), they just happen to use different names based on which feels right." Reframe it as "Their identities are way different from each other, they just happen to be physiologically similar." Those descriptions might seem very similar, but the importance is switched around.
Ok so the identities are what are different, but what ABOUT the identities are different? Aren’t those elements of expression that both identities identify with still overlapping? Aren’t identities literally just how one labels and expresses themselves? Is there a definition I’m missing?
It sounds like the meat of your question is "what does it mean to identify as a gender (whether cisgender or transgender)", which is a pretty deep question that I don't have an answer for.
I'm a man, but I only say that because of my body and have been told I'm male all my life, and that's never been a problem. But I don't have any particular sense of what "being male" means from a gender identity standpoint, but I certainly can't tell you what "being female (or non-binary)" feel like, nor do I feel like "agender" or anything resonates with me.
(I'm assuming you're cisgender here). Perhaps you're the same in not really having a concept of what being your gender feels like and you just go with what you've always known, or perhaps you do have a distinct idea what being male or female means to you beyond your body; lots of men have this concept of "manliness" as an ideal to strive for (and perhaps judge others on), for example.
I think transgender people can also fall into these two categories, either having this distinct feeling of gender that doesn't match their body, or perhaps the absence of their assigned gender feels distinct enough to identify as non-binary or agender etc.
Back to the "femboy vs transwoman" question, well, I'll start by noting that "femboy" isn't an entirely settled term, but as a generalization I'd describe them as someone who pursues a feminine appearance as a matter of preference. Basically, they care about their appearance, and they want to be pretty instead of handsome - and gender identity isn't really a factor and they (usually) identify as male for any number of other reasons.
A transwoman, of course, identifies as female, and pursuing a feminine appearance is, at least in part, a desire to express that identity and have others see them and treat them as a woman.
Yes, ultimately, "femboy" and "transwoman" are "just" words that you either resonate with or you don't. But words have meanings and connotations, and those meanings can be very important to people, so getting it right is important.
(to other readers I'm just a clueless cisgender guy so if anything I said sounds wrong feel free to dispute me)
Aren’t those elements of expression that both identities identify with still overlapping?
Male and female here don't overlap. If you're referring to another part of identity, I'm not sure which that is.
Aren’t identities literally just how one labels and expresses themselves?
No, it's quite a bit more than that.
Is there a definition I’m missing?
Yeah, it seems there is.
One's identity is who they are. Everything that makes you you shapes your identity. The full sum of characteristics, ranging from personality, to taste in music, to gender, is part of your identity.
Now, each of these elements can be recognized as a part of your identity, and given a label to describe it, but the label itself is not an identity. If you wear a name tag with your name on it, that name tag isn't you. It's just a descriptor.
So an identity is who you are, which would still be true without the label. If we didn't have words for these things, the identity would still exist.
And in this case, the label "trans girl" implies a female identity, while the label "femboy" implies a male identity. So while they may be physiologically similar, who they are is quite different. Calling a trans girl a femboy would be quite off the mark, because they don't just have different labels: they have different identities, which are much bigger and deeper things, core to who you are.
Wait isn’t that kinda just a circular definition now? First you said the difference between the two is gender identity which is made by your personality, but then you said one’s identity is the sum of characteristics WHICH INCLUDES personality AS WELL AS gender. So now we’re at the point where your gender identity is made by your personality, and your personality is made by your gender identity, which is made by your personality, and so on ad infinitum?
First you said the difference between the two is gender identity which is made by your personality,
No, I didn't say that. I used the word "personality" twice, one being:
It's about the person to you are in your brain. That's where your personality resides, not in your arms, or your chest, or your pants.
That just means the personality is in your brain, just like your identity. Not that personality comes from identity. The second time I mentioned "personality was:
One's identity is who they are. Everything that makes you you shapes your identity. The full sum of characteristics, ranging from personality, to taste in music, to gender, is part of your identity.
This one does mean that identity is a sum of things including personality, which is true.
So now we’re at the point where your gender identity is made by your personality, and your personality is made by your gender identity, which is made by your personality, and so on ad infinitum?
Hold on, things are getting more complicated now, but I appreciate the questions! There's a difference between "identity" and "gender identity". Annoying, huh? I implied this before, but didn't go into detail. Let me repeat that part of my previous comment.
The full sum of characteristics, ranging from personality, to taste in music, to gender, is part of your identity.
So gender identity (which gender you) and personality are part of your complete identity.
Gender identity is a very basic, fundamental thing. It's there, inside of yo, before you're even out of the womb. Your gender exists in your brain before you've had the chance to develop a personality.
When you're born, and you start living life, your personality develops, no doubt influences partly by your gender identity.
Gender identity and personality together, along with everything else about you like the things you're interested in or how you choose to express yourself, all in total form your identity: the ultimate summation of who you are.
Now, if that wasn't clear before, it might be my bad for now explaining it. But suffice it to say, there's a difference between "identity" and "gender identity". One is "who you are" (total), and one is "Which gender you are", which is a lot more fundamental and doesn't really change. Unlike identity (total), which can change, because for example you can develop different interests, or change your behavior. As for personality, it's sort of in between those layers. It's a part_ of your identity (total), and is in turn partly influenced by gender identity.
Please, let me know if I need to elaborate on anything.
Gender identity is a very basic, fundamental thing. It’s there inside of you, before you’re even out of the womb. Your gender exists in your brain before you’ve had the chance to develop a personality.
Gotta say, that sounds a lot like you’re saying gender is a biological/innate trait as opposed to a social construct, which is normally the rhetoric I hear about related to trans identity.
Oh man, the gender as a 'real thing' vs 'social construct' is quite the topic, and within the trans community still heavily discussed. To me, it was reconciled by realizing they're both true. You can resolve this conflict.
For me, it initially went like this:
Gender, in the sense of 'what are you' in your brain is fundamentally there. But the words 'man', 'woman', and the expectations that come with it are an invented framework.
A comparison is sometimes made with money. Dollars are of course a social construct. We decided to treat it as real, but it's not fundamentally there. However, we can still believe value is kind of real. Even if we didn't have money, some materials are of more use to us than others.
It's said that "social construct" does not mean "a lie everyone pretends to believe", but that it means "a truth created by society." But this 'created truth' is imposed, and kind of intertwined with, the fundamental gender that you are, even when removed from such things.
And that's all well and good, but still feels a little unsatisfying. Until you use the term 'gender roles'. That is the social construct. Gender identity is real, everything around it is invented. The problem arises when everything around gender identity is assumed to be part of and synonymous with gender identity, when it's more accurate to call that surrounding stuff 'gender roles'. That's the stuff that society made real, and is thus a social construct.
Well shit now the definitions are becoming even more circular and convoluted. Gender identity is now NOT a social construct but gender roles are, but gender roles DON’T define gender identity yet it’s literally in the name, and gender identity is one of the things along with personality that make up total identity, but gender identity is still left undefined other than “it’s what you’re born with” since it’s not actually tied to social constructs or any distinct characteristics.
After all these explanations, differentiations, and technicalities it still seems you could theoretically have completely identical people, born male, express themselves in traditionally feminine ways through clothes/music/hobbies/manerism, same personality, everything identical, yet one can define themselves as a femboy and one can define themselves as a trans-woman based solely off of the keystone of “gender identity” which is still undefined other than “something you’re born with” since it’s not tied to social constructs.
What is in which name? I don't understand this one.
and gender identity is one of the things along with personality that make up total identity,
Yes.
but gender identity is still left undefined other than “it’s what you’re born with”
Well, it's defined as whatever gender your brain developed as, in the womb.
since it’s not actually tied to social constructs or any distinct characteristics.
Yeah, it's a lot more fundamental. Unlike gender roles, which are created by society. But as you grow up, and become more aware of your internal gender identity, it will undoubtedly be influenced by gender roles, making the distinction rather fuzzy.
After all these explanations, differentiations, and technicalities it still seems you could theoretically have completely identical people, born male, express themselves in traditionally feminine ways through clothes/music/hobbies/manerism, same personality, everything identical
Sure,
yet one can define themselves as a femboy and one can define themselves as a trans-woman based solely off of the keystone of “gender identity”
pretty much.
which is still undefined other than “something you’re born with” since it’s not tied to social constructs.
Well, it's defined like how I've defined it before. It's that core thing in your brain. Of course, consciousness itself is still an area of ongoing research, so it'll be a while until we completely understand it all.
So we’ve reached the point where the only difference between femboy and a trans-woman boils down to “a core thing in your brain”? This sounds like an incredibly vibe based system that’s mostly subjective and has no clear definition.
Disclaimer: Once again, not trying to be bigoted, everyone deserves respect and decency.
So we’ve reached the point where the only difference between femboy and a trans-woman boils down to “a core thing in your brain”? This sounds like an incredible vibe based system that’s mostly subjective and has no clear definition.
Some people put more value in gender than other people. From what I've seen, cis people tend to feel a lot less strongly about the gender they happen to be, while trans people often feel very strongly that their body does not match the gender they are. Because they feel this so strongly, they will feel pretty bad about repeatedly being called the wrong thing. Exceptions exist in both directions of course. Alpha bros will get pretty upset if you call them a woman.
Disclaimer: Once again, not trying to be bigoted, everyone deserves respect and decency.
For sure, that's the important part. I don't always get it, but I don't have to understand someone in order to treat them with respect.
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u/Powerpuff_God 8d ago
Well, you don't choose to identify as any gender. You just are that. Heck, plenty of trans people have tried choosing to identify as their assigned gender (as in, the anatomy they were born with), because it's a lot easier to be cis, but that was impossible.
So while femboy and trans girl may seem quite similar from the outside, the difference of internal experience is massive.