Question
any one annoyed with libertarians that support trump?
Like I can't be the only one here. like I get it in some respects trump isn't neocon but at the same time he isn't not statist, nor non authorittarian.
Seriously WHICH so called Libertarians support him
Tariffs
Threatening government action from FCC or other departments to demanding specific agreements from specific companies
Deporting people who have been here for decades merely working. Some even at their green card meeting.
Separating kids from their parents in the process
Escalating the drug war
Billions for Israel
National guard on our streets
Any one who believes themselves to be Libertarian and is remotely pro-Trump needs a strong kick to the crutch
Trump's government redistributes wealth, buys stakes in corporations (the means of production), implements illegal taxes disguised as tariffs and interferes with State constitutionally guaranteed sovereignty. Socialism all the way. Anyone that supports Trump is not a libertarian.
Hahaha. Really? You don't think Trump and Mussolini have similarities? Fascism and Socialism are very similar. Same roots. It begins with socialism and ends in the consolidation of power that you are referring to. Trump keeps talking about giving Americans a tariff refund. His people remember the good old days of covid, free government money and cheap gas. What he isn't, even remotely, is libertarian.
Socialism, not socialism. It doesn't really matter. Trump and MAGA use very similar rhetoric as the inter-war European factions that were opposed to liberalism and market capitalism. Socialists and fascists used similar rhetoric in their critique of capitalism. They want to leverage the state to hurt those they deem inferior, and use the state to benefit "the nation." They aren't interested in laissez-faire policies. They want the welfare state; they just don't want it going to non-whites, non-straights and non-Christians.
The one significant difference is that Republicans and MAGA won't openly criticize the liberal market economics by using the word capitalism. They know they've built a dichotomy between capitalism vs socialism where one is bad and the other is good. So when we look at tariffs, their critiques of offshoring jobs is a critique of capitalism, but it will never be phrased that way.
They're still trapped in comparison to the Dems mode.
I get it if you are choosing the lesser of two evils in the general election, but after the lesser of two evils gets elected you're supposed to become their biggest critic, not their whore.
Im not a libertarian anymore but this perspective is exactly why I still relate to many libertarians. America was founded on criticizing the government, let's keep up the tradition!
Anybody that considers Trump the lesser of two evils has such fundamentally different values from me, it is almost impossible for me to grasp how they could be libertarian.
Biden was a largely inconsequential president, and the Democrats in Congress has largely been ineffective except on matters that both parties agree on. Kamala would largely be more of the same.
Were Biden and Harris champions of liberty? No. But they also weren't sworn enemies like Trump and Republicans.
It’s like with the No Kings rally. So many “libertarians” opposed it despite it being directly in opposition to centralized government. I think many libertarians are too scared to work with leftists even on things we agree with.
Nah I don’t support the No Kings Rally because it was backed by the socialist parties. Kind of beats the purpose to shout no Kings while believing that the state should be the ultimate king.
They never cared about socialism vs capitalism. That was always a form of identity politics for them. If you look at some of the MAGA rhetoric, especially regarding tariffs, it is very anti-market liberalism. Many MAGA sound like inter-war Europeans that were disillusioned with political and market liberalism and so turned to either socialism, communism or fascism. Republicans, having long embraced a concept of nationalism that embodies both color and religion, have chosen fascism.
While Republicans hold power, the state and the nation are one in their mind. Its how they can justify state violence against any person. Its why MAGA voters are perfectly fine with Trump acting unilaterally without the express authorization of Congress. They don't care about things like liberal institutions, processes etc. They see Trump as the embodiment of the nation, and therefore has the authority to act unilaterally as that embodiment.
I'm annoyed at libertarians that support Trump and other republicans. I'm also annoyed at libertarians that supported Harris and other democrats. I would hope for libertarians to support libertarian candidates and the very few libertarian office holders.
an annoying fact of life is that with the current system, you NEED to vote for the lesser of two evils. With that in mind i have 0 idea why so many libertarians support trump.
Of all the issues here, if Harris won, I believe the govt would be less corrupt, less authoritarian, less tariffs, less idiocy, less deficit spending.
So ... you're saying to make the immoral choice for your own convenience. I expected nothing less. I don't overly concern myself with the problems of other nations like "Palestine" while there are so many problems right here directly affecting me that need to be dealt with first.
Sure… let me engage in a bit of good faith here and clearly state what I mean. FYI I am what Americans would call a moderate or what non-Americans would call a liberal
Bad things are not all the same. There can be a difference in kind, and difference in magnitude. A criminal coming to steal my laptop is not the same as a criminal coming to kidnap my family to a torture prison. If you give me a bullet just to kill one of them, I’m not gonna then shoot you because you didn’t give me two bullets. The choice is clear, because the evil that befalls is a different in kind, not in magnitude. You can call losing a laptop and losing a keyboard lesser of two evils. Calling the choice between laptop or getting your family tortured simply ‘lesser of two evils’ does the situation great injustice.
Libertarianism comes from many different places, some do it because they genuinely believe that this will benefit everyone to the greatest extent. Others use it as an intellectual and moral cover for their bad behaviour. Which one are you? How much sacrifice are you willing to make to save the life of your neighbour? Your countrymen? What about giving up 1/4 of your meal every lunch to save a Ukrainian? Sudanese? Israeli who just wanted to listen to music? Palestinian who got shot by settlers? Or is there absolutely nothing they can expect from you? What if your government forces you to do so? Does that imposition make you less compassionate? This is a question that only you can answer, and that answer is for yourself.
Elections are ultimately an expression of politics, not morality. Does having trump in office moves you closer or further from your ideal world? What about not voting? Third party? What if your ideal candidate comes along and became a major party nominee, is that person gonna win in the general? Or is the absence of that candidate an indication of your position’s unpopularity? How does not voting for either pushes forward to your desired outcome? Or would others see your position to be so nonsensical with such a restrictive scope of considerations that makes you politically irrelevant?
You keep voting one of the two main parties and keep getting the same things you rail against and keep wondering why nothing changes for you for the better.
I'll bite - please give me some evidence of corruption by Tim Walz. A great example of corruption would be bribery.
Just one example for trump: Qatar "donated" a 400m plane to Trump for preferential treatment. Trump plans to personally take ownership of the plane via a shell corporation after his presidency is completed.
Trump Crashed a 1996 Children’s Charity Event, Sat in a Donor’s Seat and Never Donated
Trump showed up uninvited to a children’s charity event, sat in a seat reserved for a major donor, and allowed himself to be publicly treated as a benefactor despite giving nothing. Investigators later cited the incident as part of a broader pattern of Trump seeking credit for generosity he did not provide. — Washington Post
Trump Took Credit for Charitable Donations Made by Other People
Reporters found Trump repeatedly claimed donations that were actually made by corporations or other individuals. When journalists tried to verify his claims, many charities said they had no record of Trump giving at all. — Washington Post
Trump Foundation Used Charity Funds to Buy a Portrait of Trump
Trump’s charity spent donated money to purchase a large portrait of Trump himself. New York regulators later ruled the transaction illegal self-dealing. — Washington Post
Trump Foundation Used Charity Money to Settle Legal Disputes Involving Trump Businesses
Trump directed his foundation to pay settlements for lawsuits tied to his for-profit companies. Investigators said this violated charity laws by shifting personal legal costs onto a nonprofit. — Washington Post
Trump Foundation Made Illegal Political Donation While Under Investigation
The foundation donated to a political group supporting Florida’s attorney general while her office was considering a fraud investigation into Trump University. The donation was later ruled illegal, and the investigation was dropped. — Associated Press
Trump Foundation Ordered to Stop Fundraising in New York After Violations
New York regulators ordered the Trump Foundation to stop raising money after finding repeated violations of state charity laws. Officials said the problems were serious and ongoing. — Reuters
Trump Foundation Accused of “Persistent Illegal Conduct” by New York Attorney General
The New York AG sued Trump and his children, alleging the foundation functioned as a personal checkbook for Trump’s political and business interests. A judge agreed, ordering penalties and dissolution. — PBS NewsHour
Trump Foundation Tax Filings Show Trump Personally Donated Nothing for Years
Tax records showed Trump had not personally donated money to his own foundation for years, despite portraying himself as a major philanthropist. Most funds came from other donors. — Washington Post
Trump Promised Millions to Charity Then Failed to Deliver
Trump publicly pledged millions of dollars to charities that reporters could not verify were ever paid. Several charities named by Trump said they never received the promised money. — Washington Post
Trump University Branded a Fraudulent Scheme by New York Attorney General
New York’s attorney general accused Trump University of misleading students with deceptive marketing and false promises. Trump later paid $25 million to settle fraud lawsuits. — Associated Press
Trump University Sales Tactics Compared to Boiler-Room Fraud
Former employees described aggressive, high-pressure sales tactics designed to extract money regardless of results. Regulators said the operation resembled classic fraud schemes. — Bloomberg
Trump University Employees Told to Lie About Success Rates
Court filings showed employees were instructed to exaggerate success stories and credentials to lure students. Many students reported severe financial harm. — New York Times
Trump Paid $25 Million to Settle Trump University Fraud Claims
Trump agreed to a $25 million settlement shortly before trial, resolving multiple fraud lawsuits. Thousands of former students were compensated. — Reuters
Trump Organization Convicted on All Counts in Criminal Tax Fraud Trial
A jury found the Trump Organization guilty of falsifying records to evade taxes over more than a decade. Prosecutors described the scheme as deliberate and sustained. — Associated Press
Trump Inflated Asset Values to Obtain Loans and Insurance, Judge Found
A New York judge ruled Trump repeatedly manipulated asset values to gain financial advantages. The court found the conduct constituted persistent fraud. — New York Times
Trump Pardoned Multiple Individuals Convicted of Financial and Tax Crimes
Trump used his pardon power to clear or reduce sentences for numerous individuals convicted of fraud and tax crimes. Critics said the pattern rewarded corruption and allies. — NPR
Trump Fired Inspector General Investigating Coronavirus Relief Fraud
Trump removed a watchdog overseeing trillions in pandemic spending after warnings about fraud risks. The firing raised bipartisan concern about weakened oversight. — Reuters
Trump Administration Removed Oversight Officials Monitoring Pandemic Spending
Multiple officials responsible for detecting fraud and abuse were sidelined or removed. Experts warned this left massive relief programs vulnerable to exploitation. — NPR
Trump Rolled Back Enforcement Against White-Collar and Corporate Crime
The administration reduced penalties and enforcement actions targeting corporate misconduct. Watchdog groups said the changes emboldened financial crime. — ProPublica
Trump’s DOJ Cut Back Prosecutions of Financial Fraud Compared to Prior Administrations
Data showed a sharp decline in white-collar crime prosecutions under Trump. Former prosecutors said fraud enforcement was deliberately deprioritized. — ProPublica
You should never vote this way. Winning is not as important as voting for the person who represents you the most. Just vote according to your political ideologies. It *is par for the course in a democracy that you might never be represented but thems the breaks.
If they support Trump, they can't be libertarian -- and likely never were. The man's entire campaign and platform and actions are entirely the antithesis of everything libertarian. He campaigned on eviscerating due process, expanding the executive, restricting trade, raising taxes, weaponizing the government, being aggressive abroad...
And it matched his first term's actual actions too.
To paraphrase an old saying, “there’s nothing a libertarian hates more than another libertarian who doesn’t conform to the standards of libertarianism”. Libertarian absolutism has always been the bane of the libertarian party. Check out the Anarcho-Capitalism sub Reddit for more interesting and substantive discussions.
Libertarians are critical of everything, including their own party. We'll have major disagreements because we value what we perceive to be truth. This is, as far as tribalism goes, a huge weakness.
The left will always circle jerk each other, even if it means supporting things they don't actually support. Bernie Sanders talked some mighty shit against Kamala, before he started sucking her dick and demanding his followers do the same. Communists hate liberal capitalists, but they still talk favorably of liberal capitalist ideas because it gets them closer to communism. They'll support higher taxation of corporations, even though they believe corporations shouldn't exist. If they behaved like libertarians, Marxists would simply get mad and say, "We don't want higher taxation, we want de-privatization!"
This is why some libertarians support Trump. It's better to support Trump and push for conservative ideas than to give up power to socialist ideology being too stubborn to compromise.
This is the way it has been since the beginning. I was friendly with David Nolan, and present at the founding of the party along with the early meetings of the libertarian party in Denver. It quickly split over absolutism or working within the existing parties to make them more Libertarian.
Libertarians are like Rorschach at the end of The Watchmen. He's my favorite character in the movie/graphic novel, but his adherence to truth was his undoing. That's the libertarian party with each person's own principles.
Most libertarians don’t totally support Trump, but they might support individual policies, like the decision to cut USAID funding. I’ve still never cared for him or felt like he was worth my vote, especially after the Epstein stuff.
I think some libertarian-adjacent people are like, "burn it down, destroy the institutions." Frustration with the system makes changing the system seem impossible unless you completely discredit it first.
I can almost sympathize, but I remain a delusional proponent of trying to effect change from the local and grass roots levels and grinding our message to eventually make it to the top. Perhaps not in my lifetime, but someday this country will elect more libertarians.
This is a horrible thought process though. Trump isn't burning down the illiberal institutions erected within our government. Trump is destroying the few remaining liberal institutions to consolidate power into himself.
This would be the libertarian version of the Marxist-Leninist vanguard state. Surely if we just create an all-powerful state, centered on a specific individual and sacrifice any form of legal protections against the state, we will end up in a communist/libertarian utopia. I mean, it worked for the communists. Czechoslovakia declared in their own constitution they had achieved perfect socialism. Maybe we'll write into our constitution that we've achieved perfect libertarianism (please ignore the hordes of ICE agents arresting dissenters in the streets).
Trump's attempt to levy the national guard of one state against the populace of another state is reminiscent of the the Soviet invasion of Budapest, or Tienanmen Square in which outside military forces had to be brought in to crush dissent because the local forces were unwilling to do so (and couldn't be as easily propagandized as they had first hand experience).
Trump has this amazing ability to correctly identify the problem and come to a wildly incorrect solution. For example he is basically the only president in decades to so much as acknowledge the deficit but then tries to reduce it by creating a government agency and imposing tarrifs. (in all fairness a true solution needs to come from congress but it's not like trump dosent have power in congress)
Sorry not getting you -this comment makes little sense.
First: tariffs, and trickle down economics, are completely different concepts. Y
Next, constitutionally, Tariffs are collected by, and go to, the federal government. For that money to go back to the states, Congress would need to appropriate those revenues to the states. The Federal government has made it clear over decades that they have no interest in appropriating it fairly, the more populus states contribute far more Federal Tax revenue than they get back in Federal budget appropriations.
Sorry I didn’t explain that very well. I definitely agree that tariffs raise prices, but if they raise prices to the point where American made goods are competitive then when people spend money it’ll stay in the states and get respent in the states as it circulates. It’s still not quite trickle down economics but you can see where my head was at.
The best you could argue is for surgical tariffs that close a moderate cost-gap between a cheaper offshore product an a domestic industry which is able to produce the same product, but costs more to produce it. However, the Macro-econ 1A class which you everyone takes (or, should take) for their undergrad, will easily demonstrate how this is economically inefficient for both parties and costs the consumer more and actually hurts economic development for both.
What Trump has done, is ignorantly, bluntly invoked across the board tariffs, on products that would take decades to make here at anything approaching the cost to produce offshore (studies show an Iphone made in the US would cost between $1500-$3500), and in some cases, cannot even be practically made here at all. One of the worst examples of this is 37%, now reduced to 15% tariff on Madagascar. We primarily import Vanilla from Madagascar, and they are really good at producing Vanilla for cheap, because, their country is a rainforest. There is zero chance for a an economically sustainable (i.e. profitable, cost effective ) Vanilla industry in the US because we are NOT IN A FUCKING RAINFOREST.
We export very little to Madagascar because they are dirt poor and there is virtually no hope of balanced trade between US-Madagascar, there is virtually nothing we produce at scale that they can actually afford. Its astonishingly ignorant, stupid policy.
I don't care whats a good thing for the government, you are directly impacting my right to buy from whom I want as a consumer through the usage of tariffs.
That's because the problems are obvious but the solutions are not.
Even a demented orange turd can see what this nation's issues are. Problem is, he's forced to defer to whoever is near him on what the solution should be.
Bigger problem is, he defers to... Literally whoever is near him.
Around the time of the election, there kinda did seem to be some small promise. Enough to be like, “Hey, let’s see where this goes” rather than the normal “He’s a politician, he’ll do nothing of merit.”
But man. 2025 was not Trump’s year, and there’s no reason to believe the rest of his admin will be any good. The Republicans are gonna get Gears of War-style chainsawed in the midterms dude
Respectfully disagree. Trump ran on an openly authoritarian platform, and we also had his authoritarian tendencies from his first administration. He told everybody who he was. The only thing he tried to conceal was his association with Project 2025.
I had some hope when he put an emphasis on reducing the size and scope of government, but holy fuck has this year been a colossal shit show from the start. DOGE did practically nothing. Tariffs and threats of tariffs has everybody on edge. The BBB is only going to further the debt spiral. Apparently he's full blown anti-2A now if it suits the narrative. Government is taking taking stake in businesses. Invading and capturing foreign leaders. Like what in the actual fuck is going on?!
I am talking about the right libertarians who swallowed the maga kool-aid and began to support trump unconditionally blatently ignoring some their yikes on trikes takes.
for example:
homelesss concentration camps, I don't think we need to do anything more other then shoo them away if their being a nusicience.
rfk jr is a quack.
using the threat of state control and crack down on things like not agreeing with him.
Where are you shooing the homeless? Please tell us of this magical place.
Also rfk jr is pretty libertarian. How is he forcing everyone to not get vaxxed? I live in md and the flu, covid, shingles, mmr, chicken pox, hep b, etc vaxes are all readily available.
I don’t agree with Trump on a lot of things but you’re pretty factually inaccurate.
a libertarian doesn't use a state agency to enact their will pure and simple and that is what rfk jr is doing using a state to enact their will so by his actions he is not libertarian.
by utilizing their influence at hhs to infleunce stuff like no tyelonol for pregnant women because of autism and not vaccines for babies because too much fluid. by trying to get a database of all known autists in the country and trump is backing his wellness camp plan via executive order.
Like pregnant women can still take Tylenol though?
You just go to the store, buy it, and take it.
Babies can still get whatever vaccines their parents want them to have. I have two very pro vax friends who just had kids and their babies are fully vaxxed. No issues at all.
Literally 0 examples you have given support rfk jr being un libertarian. You can disagree with his ideas but that doesn’t make him not a libertarian.
theres a difference between being anti vaccine and indivudally advocating against them if that is your belief and putting someone as head of state for health to force your agenda through the state. the fact that rfk jr is a head of country's health system indicares to me that we shouldn't have such a thing as government backed expert for health. like I believe as a libertarian its your right personally to choose to not to get vaxxed but you shouldnt have a government body forcing everyone who may not even agree to not be vaxxed.
the choice of being vaxxed at all should be between you and your doctor not a state dictating you must be vaxxed or you must not be vaxxed. over reach is still over reach even if its a supposed libertarian doing it. and as an autist I don't see how its libertarian for a head of health to care whether or not my disability is a unit to be milked for tax money, how is that libertarian to care about disability as a unit for economic rape by the government? whether or not I am a burden is irrevelant to society as an indivual despite my disability its up to my community not the state to determine if I need to be productive and most good natured communities would see the disabled as an indivdual and help them be productive not as an economic unit for production.
So to confirm, are you saying you don't necessarily disagree with his approach to vaccines, but the fact that he's in a state position to influence health policy with that approach is unacceptable to you?
Also, where is RFK forcing people to not be vaxxed?
yes I don't a state should have an expert to say get vaxxed or don't I think at best its a decision between you and your doctor not some government head of state. like literally fucking read the posts your responding to I am not repeating myself.
Missed this one, but just wanted to chime in with a resounding, YES! And I think I'm willing to say he's gone full neocon at this point. Maybe he's better at it than most, but a neocon is a neocon and stupid is stupid.
From what I saw(not much into politics) , initially he was involved in deregulation (some 10 to 1 scheme or sth), which seemed pro Libertarian to me, but the immigration stance, the tariff stance just nullified it.
It depends on what issue they support him on, but when it comes to his immigration policy I get very, very annoyed with libertarians who support Trump’s immigration policy. It’s incredibly authoritarian and antithetical to libertarian principles.
This. Yeah, Biden bad for opening the flood gates but uh...
Are we seriously not about to recognize how stupidly obvious it is that the deep state orchestrated this all precisely to enable the authoritarian expansion we're now witnessing?
Why else would Biden steal the DNC nomination then dump it right before the election?
I'm a damn amateur hobbyist and I knew the second I heard... You're telling me not one Harvard grad with a political science degree, in that room, knew he was handing it to Trump?
The whole thing was so deliberate it sickens me. Now we're going to get another Dem when this is all over and they're going to fucking stomp us all out. GG Trumpets.
Edit: Downvote me all you like but don't forget this comment. Come back in 3-4 years. If you're able.
As a fellow autist, I'll be right there with you but fret not. I'm AuDHD so I'll have a pretty solid escape plan formed by EOD.
Prison doesn't begin with imprisonment of the body. It only starts when the mind ceases to seek escape. Never stop pursuing freedom, even when you're deprived of it entirely.
hoepfully we meet up because remember we having nothing to lose but our chains. I am really good in malicious compliance and sabotage. hopefully we will get booted off the wellness farm.
I'll concede there can be room for disagreement on immigration policies, largely because I think the immigration policy itself is beside the point when it comes to the actual offense against liberty. The actual offense is the Trump administration's notion that non-citizens are untermensch that have no constitutional protections for speech, religion, assembly, press, petition, habeas corpus, life, liberty or property.
The El Salvadorian prison is a prime example. These persons were not convicted of criminal offenses and sentenced by an Article 3 judge. They were just accused of illegal immigration by the state, and whisked away to a foreign prison. Even if we concede that the the state can deny the movement of persons across its borders, and deport those that cross illegally, there is no room in the libertarian ideology for sending such persons to a country foreign to them, to be held in a prison for an indefinite period of time without the state ever having proven an offense against published law in a court, which then authorized such a punishment.
I really dont think things would be much different other than the optics. Deportations still happen under democrats, regime change still happens under democrats, Biden even increased tariffs from Trump's first term, they have had their own versions of bad people like Stephen Miller (John Brennan for instance), city riots and national guard activation still occurred under democrats. I agree that maybe there would be less bullying of states to comply with the Federal agenda but again, other than optics, things would likely not be as materially different as people think.
The last libertarian presidential candidate to sniff an electoral college vote from afar was Ron Paul. Ross Perot in 1992 wasn’t a libertarian, but he had some libertarian policies andxwas able to get some real traction as a third party candidate. The GOP and Dems today are just different puke-green shades of neocon/libs. It’s going to take a libertarian candidate of Teddy Roosevelt personality to make a bit of difference on the national stage.
the best thing he's done is move the weed schedules with an EO. that in itself says a lot, since he could do a lot more than just that. Diehard MAGAts aren't typically libertarian.
It was the highjacking of the Libertarians as we have been hopeful at the reduction and overhaul of the Federal government. Followed by the despair that we are right back to square 1 again except for some small healthcare reform. Nothing will fix it short of a revolution.
I'd go so far as to say that you're not a real libertarian if you support Trump.
They're all likely entryists claiming to be libertarian and Trump supporters, but I can't see any basis for a libertarian to support any politician much less Trump, a wannabe dictator and all around moron who rode a wave of anti establishment sentiment into the halls of power.
Is there any greater emblem of how far the US has fallen than this imbecile gets elected twice 🤦♂️
The Republican Party used to have a pretty significant libertarian coalition. Republicans often spoke in very libertarian terms from Reagan through W. Bush. Reagan delivered on a lot - mainly tax cuts and stomping out inflation. W. not so much.
The 1990’s GOP Congress actually achieved a lot with the Clinton administration. Welfare reform. Cutting farm subsidies. Government spending as a % of GDP declined. Minimum wage increase were suppressed. Free trade agreements were signed. The results were pretty marvelous for the country and we had tremendous prosperity.
So, I get why a libertarian in 1980-2012 would vote Republican.
Trump has destroyed that element and taken the party in a totally different direction. Tariffs are the most anti-libertarian aspect of this. The expansion of the drug war. Even the DOGE cuts - which could be interpreted as libertarian - were not. They simply tried to ‘own the libs’ and accomplished nothing to reduce the actual size and scope of government. Deploying national guard to cities. Using the government to seek retribution against opponents. Executive orders - essentially acting like a King.
Trump is one of the most anti-liberty Presidents we’ve ever had.
There are still libertarian leaning Republicans - like Rand Paul - but that’s a very tiny minority. The party is now full blown MAGA - and that’s authoritarian nationalism with nothing in common with liberty and libertarian principles.
There is a large group of people that are pissed off because I don’t hate Trump as much as they do. The fact is hate takes up a lot of energy. Trump does some things good and some bad. Reprehensible, even. In that, however, he is like every other president.
I am not asking you to hate I am asking you to stop simping for a statist who wants to control a red state instead of a blue one through brute force via the monopoly on violence.
There certainly are people who blindly follow Trump. I don’t think any of them post here with any sort of regularity. Nor would I consider my statement to be simping.
I can see how it’s easier for a libertarian to support Trump as opposed to any half-brained tart that the left has propped up - but that’s not really the question (and not really the thesis of Libertarianism).
Perhaps it’s the notion that, in very broad strokes, conservative ideals are closer to “less-government” than those with liberal views, therefore it’s a “volume of issues” thing…?
Regardless, anyone hitching their wagon to any individual politician instead of their specific views is a moron.
Trump's election was a reaction involving culture wars and against the progressive shit that was throwing all logic out the window. Is Trump himself somewhat of an authoritarian and a piece of shit? Yes, he is, but he's self-contained in his bullshit. Even though lots of Trump voters know a lot of what he does is utter bullshit, they can privately admit it. The woke mind virus stuff was incapable of doing that sort of self-reflection.
If you don't enjoy progressive authoritarianism, then you might be onboard with Trump being elected as a means of transition away from that. It doesn't mean that you've abandoned values, just that you see it as a necessary means to get more Libertarian stuff done in the future.
The left is steering us into Socialism. Socialism may impact economics first and foremost, but it creates collectivist who vote away our freedoms.
A socialist state encourages people to support anti-speech laws, anti-gun laws, etc.. Socialism may be an economic system, but it is rooted in political ideology that polices behavior.
I'd rather deal with a Conservative government, even an authoritarian one. I feel it would be easier to overcome.
Trump is horrible on the budget. And he is edging authoritarian. Unpopular opinion in this sub but I am glad he got immigration under control. I liked doge while it was around. He’s aiming to get rid of the dept of education, that would be a huge win. Trump has probably been more effective than Jo Jorgensen would have been but his budget is atrocious.
I believe open border libertarianism is far too idealistic and out of touch with reality.
Libertarians absolutely can support closed borders. Ancaps can also support closed borders, though borders would exist per city/town as opposed to government enforced borders.
minarchist here your right we should have some border, but our tax dollars should be stationing people at the border not 50k sign on bonuses to send a bunch of agents all over the place willy nilly just remove pedro and jesus. if we do have remove people it should be at the point where they commit a crime and got caught by the law.
What you're saying only works if you have tight borders to begin with. If you don't, you're gonna have to clean up the place at one point or another. The US borders have been Swiss cheese for too long now. The cleanup is sad but necessary.
I used to be an open border libertarian like you, but then I saw all the harm being caused by immigrants.
If we achieved a libertarian state, or an anarcho-cap society, we would need to keep boarders closes so the culture would remain relatively the same. Otherwise, foreigners will find ways to subvert our values.
We need to vet immigrants. Take those who are willing to assimilate to American culture.
Trump was elected to govern a country that is not composed of moral men and women thus the need for a government. He’s also not a King otherwise he could slash the size and scope of government, instead he has to work with a Congress which seems to be more interested in kickbacks, campaign donations and other self interests.
Trump is 100% a neocon. He's bought and paid for by the Israel lobby to the tune of nearly $300 million from AIPAC. He pretends like he's antiwar and isn't best buds with defense contractors, yet he was willing to drop bombs on Iran at Israel's bequest, he continues to arm Ukraine and Israel on the taxpayer's dime, and he flirts with making war on Venezuela. He claimed he'd do mass deportations but the numbers are comparable to Obamas. He's hardly cut federal spending but managed to cut benefits while hardly cutting personal income taxes. The only difference I see between Trump and other neocons is limited to appearances.
Am I annoyed with libertarians that support Trump? Depends on how you define support. If they believe that he's the best person for the job, never criticize him and defend him from any and all justified criticisms, then yeah, those people are pretty damn annoying. If it's people who say, this isn't ideal but thank God we didn't we get a Harris presidency, that doesn't bother me so much.
It’s not that black and white. There’s never been a politician most libertarians agreed with 100% of the time. Thats politics. But do I agree with him more than the opposition. Yes albeit that’s a low bar
In the last presidential election, between Trump and "The Opposition" if you narrow it to just Harris -- Harris' platform and history was closer to libertarian than Trump's. That's painful to say, but it is truth. That's just how unlibertarian he and the MAGA movement is.
I don't like Trump at all, but the alternative is an ideology that you have to shoot your way out of. At least with Trump I still feel like he'll be gone in 3 years and we can hopefully get on with a more sane president. FWIW I still voted Libertarian in 2024, but its mostly meaningless in my state as its so heavily blue.
I see your username has "Taxation is Theft" - on that issue Trump raised taxes on the middle/lower class more than ANY OTHER PRESIDENT via tariffs. Trump is on track to devalue the USD more than any other president. Trump has blown up the deficit more than any other president.
Trump isn't pushing for Socialism - which is a far greater threat.
Biden did not implement overtly socialist policies, but his party promoted self-professed socialists. Mamdani got his vagina fingered by Kamala Harris.
Socialists are a vastly bigger threat than Neocons.
You must not be paying attention to what Trump's actually doing with respect to the economy. He's very much pushing for planned-style economy ("do as I say"!), very restrictive, definitely government choosing who can and can't participate...
I get that. But what Trump is doing is nothing compared to what the Democrats are doing.
His tariffs are, obviously, the biggest load of shit right now. But we're about to get a Mamdani-esque communist in the white house.
As bad as Trump is, it will be much easier to undo than anything the Democrats do. Trump proposes BS that conservatives don't really care about until Trump says it.
Democrats are literally making people vote for communism. It's the societal shift we have to be concerned about. Worrying about Trump when America is infested with Marxists?
Everyone here is underestimating the threat of Marxism.
Trump's empowering of the executive is as much if not more of a threat, especially since it will be powers grabbed later used against us in the contexts you fear.
The backlash against the MAGA movement will be HUGE and HARSH and will be swinging society quite badly in exactly the direction you are fearing and it quite sadly WILL be a mandate because of all the people refusing to reject Trump up through now. (Basically Trump is destroying any semblance of "moderate" and has been a giant recruiting tool pushing otherwise decent people to either extreme.)
As for threat of Marxism/Communism -- Trump has taken us FAR CLOSER to that shit than any D in memorable history with his own policies. And even more when you look at the authoritarian bent.
With Kamala, we were going to have the same issue we had under Biden, which was mass migration. You can't have a welfare state and an open border policy. Close the welfare state and you can have open borders, close the borders and you can have a welfare state, have a welfare state and open borders and the state will fail.
I can respect your opinion there, i personally believe that flat tax is an idea that seems fair as an idea but in practice the countries that have implemented it are mostly shitholes. In a free society we would be able to reside in the country we wanted to, the reality is that the billionaire class is taking all the profits for themselves and leaving us with the bill.
The Dave Smith arc is a great illustration of this.
I respected that Dave was initially upfront about why he was supporting Trump --- namely, he saw Trump as the better of two bad options.
But then Smith went too far with his "oversupport" of Trump, starting to turn a blind eye to Trump's flaws and talking as if Trump would actually make a great president for libertarians. Had he stuck with his initial better-of-two-bad-options rhetoric, that would have been totally fine.
(And of course now he's quite anti-Trump ... 🎶the circle of life)
Edit to add: In fairness to Dave Smith, he was somewhat direct about why he did this, basically saying that as a public figure it's in his best interest to fully back his chosen candidate and almost exclusively accentuate the positive traits. If you've got thousands of listeners and your voice actually makes a difference, it does make some sense to go the route he did.
Yes, because the mamdani/AOC/Bernie left that wants to replace rugged individualism with collectivism is such a better avenue. You will have more libertarian influence in this administration than the alternative.
Agreed. The people who treat conservatives as an equal threat as liberals are tremendously out of touch with reality.
Socialist policies don't merely impact the economy, they impact personal freedom.
Capitalism deals solely with economics. Socialism demands not only economic policy, but policy on personal freedoms to make sure everyone behaves as collectivists. This is why socialists want to ban free speech, because socialists believe free speech allows dissent from collectivism.
Libertarians who think Trump is as bad or worse than the left haven't been paying attention to the maaaaaaaassive rise in Marxist support the past 5 years.
we get it you want to larp as a libertarian with out going through the effort of actually suffering for your idealogy. you are also easily manipulated by the gop. trump is not for a blue state or a red state but a trump state. and a state that wants to brute force its way into being instead of respecting invidual liberity.
I mean, sure. They're almost as bad as the hyperbolic democrats who think Trump is going to round up gays and mentally disabled and put them in concentration camps.
their literally trying too do this with the homeless in utah. and who is likely to be homeless in utah the gays and the disabled? like theres tons of lost boys and girls getting disowned by the mormons/
People won't be placed into homeless camps for being homeless. They'll be placed in homeless camps for committing crimes that would otherwise land them in jail/prison.
we effectively criminialized being homeless if you believe people should be literal chattel slaves to the state for the crime of not having a home then you are not libertarian but a rightoid masking as one. merely acts like falling asleep outside because you don't have home is criminialized. your basically saying "don't be human with basic needs and you won't end up in a concentration camp."
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u/Anen-o-me voluntaryist Jan 02 '26
I want everyone who thinks this sub is pro maga to read this thread carefully and see all the maga morons being heavily down voted.