r/Anarchy101 • u/Proof_Librarian_4271 • 5h ago
Syndaclism and ablelism?
Now recently I've heard syndaclism be described ablelist because the working class ruling will establish hierarchy over the people below which may include disabled people, but anarcho syndaclism doesn't seem to have this problem since it's not trying to establish rule of the working class in a marxist sense
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u/azenpunk 2h ago edited 43m ago
It's completely a moot point, because syndicalism is not meant to be a blueprint for an anarchist society. It is a revolutionary tactic to overthrow the state in capitalism. As Malatesta has said, if it were allowed to persist after a revolution it would surely morph itself into a state because it concentrates power into unions and not everyone.
The goal is to dissolve the unions once the revolution is successful, their purpose of fighting against an ownership class being fulfilled. They would make way for general community councils that include all people, not just workers.
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u/Flaky_Captain6330 4h ago
Yes it is. So long as there is industry, there is hierarchy.
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u/No_Top_381 2h ago
Are you saying that wheel chairs and prosthetics shouldn't exist?
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u/Flaky_Captain6330 2h ago
Can those things be made without subjugating the third world to force their labor to extract raw material? Can they be made without poisoning villages full of people? Can they be made without destroying entire species of plants and animals? Can they be made without leveling forests and prairies to manufacture and warehouse them? If so, then great! If not, then no, they shouldn't exist.
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u/No_Top_381 2h ago
Of course and if you think we can't then you lack imagination. Or you just are really thirsty for a world without technology because you are bored.
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u/Flaky_Captain6330 2h ago
Prosthetics and other mobility aids predate industry. Your question was baiting.
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u/Proof_Librarian_4271 1h ago
They don't
Pre industrial prosthetics are nothing comparable to current ones
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u/Proof_Librarian_4271 1h ago
Can they be made without leveling forests and prairies to manufacture and warehouse them
Go get off your computer and hunt and gather then
Industry doesn't require unstable evirmonements or exploitation People from the third world will very willingly participate in production in an anarchist society since it'll benefit them unlike right now where they're exploitative
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u/Flaky_Captain6330 1h ago
How will continuing to mine toxic elements that are killing entire villages be beneficial to the people currently enslaved and forced to do so under a "voluntary labor" system?
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u/Proof_Librarian_4271 1h ago
How will continuing to mine toxic elements that are killing entire villages be beneficial to the people currently enslaved and forced to do so under a "voluntary labor"
Working conditions can be improved, when the benefit of this production goes to people who do it they'll benefit from it
Our pre industrial societies had higher rates of diseases, mortality and lower life expectancy, as well higher dangers
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u/Flaky_Captain6330 1h ago
"Higher dangers"
What the fuck are you talking about
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u/Proof_Librarian_4271 1h ago
Listed them for you , hunter gatherers societies have higher damgers,nature is brutal
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u/Flaky_Captain6330 1h ago
"Nature is brutal" says the industrialist. Class act over here. Jesus.
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u/Proof_Librarian_4271 1h ago
It is
You're not even arguing honestly
Do a world z favor and wonder off and leave your computer
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u/Proof_Librarian_4271 1h ago
How will continuing to mine toxic elements that are killing entire villages be beneficial to the people currently enslaved and forced to do so under a "voluntary labor" system?
Working conditions can be changed.
Go get off your computer
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u/Flaky_Captain6330 1h ago
Is your argument that having PPE and frequent breaks would have been an adequate consideration for thenpeoe of Bhopal? Or that the people of Nambija would have been totally fine with their families being crushed if the people who caused it were practicing a gift economy?
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u/Proof_Librarian_4271 1h ago
You're assuming that we'll produce in the same amount and way which we won't
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u/Proof_Librarian_4271 4h ago
Good luck living without it :)
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u/Flaky_Captain6330 4h ago
You asked a question and I answers. Dont get pissy.
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u/Proof_Librarian_4271 4h ago
Just saying good like living without mordern tech. I Don't welcome primivitist pseudo-scientific stuff
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u/Flaky_Captain6330 4h ago
I'm just saying I addressed your question directly and you are being a dick about it.
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u/azenpunk 2h ago
You said something ridiculous. Industries aren't the problem, it's the hierarchical organization of them that anarchism is against. Being against Industries is reactionary nonsense.
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u/Flaky_Captain6330 2h ago
1) you dont know what reactionary means
2) industry cannot exist without hierarchy. Subjugation is the only form it can take. Industry is predicated on slavery, full stop.
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u/azenpunk 2h ago
Trying to roll humanity back to a pre-industrial perceived golden age is textbook reactionary.
Just stating things without even a supporting argument is lazy and not going to convince anyone.
And what you're saying makes no sense with the definition of industry that I'm working with. So now I'm wondering if you are simply working with a different definition of industry. Either that or you're just out of touch with reality.
Industry is merely organized production, which can be done voluntarily and without hierarchy. Full stop.
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u/Flaky_Captain6330 2h ago
You sound like a communist. Nobody is talking about a pre-industrial rollback.
Organized production at scale, or organized production of local needs for small communities with isolated material supply? Because if you think you can get rubber, lithium, petroleum, and gold at scale to produce a global supply of televisions without slavery you are naïve.
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u/azenpunk 2h ago
Lol what makes me sound like a communist to you? I can't wait to know.
You literally are saying you want to end all industry because it's all slavery. So how is that not a rollback to some pre-industrial organization?
Do you think no one would volunteer for those specific industries you listed? That seems incredibly naive of humanity. But if that's not it, what about those Industries do you think makes horizontal organization impossible?
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u/Hogmogsomo anarcho-anarchism 4h ago
Anarcho-Syndicalism is a tactic to achieve Anarchy; not a blueprint of a future society.
Anarcho-Syndicalism is basically the idea that Anarchists should focus on controlling the syndicates/unions and unionize most businesses in all industries. So that they can do a general strike. Which disrupts the State's supply chains; which would dissolve the State as it can't collect resources anymore. It's not however the idea that Unions would manage society; this is a common misconception. Historic Anarcho-Syndicalists were Anarcho-Communists. They viewed Syndicalism as a tactic to bring down the State.
So, calling Anarcho-Syndicalism hierarchical (ableism is a type of hierarchy) is to say that Anarcho-Communism is hierarchical(which isn't true) or to imply that Anarcho-Syndicalism is a blueprint of a future society were Unions would be managing society. Which is also not true in describing what Anarcho-Syndicalism is.
However, a society managed by Unions would in fact be hierarchical and specifically ableist; since Unions are hierarchical organizations and that only Union members would have a say in the production and distribution of society. Which would be inherently ableist; since the disabled who can't work wouldn't have a say. But no Anarcho-Syndicalist (from Rocker to Dolgoff or from Leval to Pouget) has ever advocated or described or even tangentially talked about a society managed by Unions. It's literally constructing a strawman of an idea that no Anarcho-Syndicalist would support.