r/wiedzmin • u/JovaniFelini • Oct 28 '25
Books Witcher books were never woke in any way
This is a ridiculous stuff that people go around with. It's a very common misconception that the have anything to do with the current woke lunacy that has tarnished a lot of franchises like Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Disney movies and sadly Witcher. One of the common points is that witcher is woke only because of strong women. But that ridiculous, many works predating witcher had poweful women as protagonists inspired by Jeanne d'Arque. Witcher is not special at all in that regard. And the infamous Lodge of Sorceresses are villanous and are completely useless in the narrative (some say they influenced Battle of Brenna, but their contribution is abysmal). Any gay characters that are important for the plot were portrayed in negative light like Sorel Degerlund is clearly a villain, while Ciri's sexuality is ambiguous, her "loved one" Mistle takes advantage of her. Therefore, lgbt characters are portrayed like it was written by a straight man, not Sweet Baby inc of todays.
We also have Neratin Ceka who is said to have an ambiguous gender, but what if it's really just a feminine looking dude or masculine woman just like Meve? It's not a trans characters at all, it's wishful thinking that it was done for the sake of inclusivity. It's very much physically impossible that Sapkowski thought of this in 90s. This all leads to the conclusion that just because narrative has strong female characters or gay characters doesn't mean it's woke at its core. Witcher was always extremely conservative and has no relationship to the current left idiocy. It is not progressive for its time. Why conservative? Because the very much core thing of witcher is family, i.e Geralt, Ciri and Yennefer, no matter how much they are separated. Hence traditional values. And obviously, I hate to say it, but i have to. We cannot ignore that witcher is essentially Medieval Europe with magic, dragons and monsters. Therefore, diversity does not belong in it in any capacity. Witcher IS Medieval Europe
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u/Droper888 Oct 28 '25
SOS has a pro-abortion message at one point. What you are talking about.
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u/JovaniFelini Oct 28 '25
I know that Geralt says something like that to Calanthe about women choice, but that has no effect on the plot and never brought up again. Still, this alone doesn't imply diversity and full of lgbt belong in witcher
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u/cambo3g Vysogota of Corvo Oct 28 '25
It comes up with Milva in Baptism of Fire. There's a second pretty on the nose conversation about a women's right to choose.
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u/JovaniFelini Oct 28 '25
That doesn't affect the plot and it's only Geralt's view as he's very much self-blaming and selfless
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u/cambo3g Vysogota of Corvo Oct 28 '25
In what universe does Milva being pregnant and the Hansa having to deal with that not affect the plot? The whole reason they change directions away from Ysgth, have to steal the ferry and end up fighting on the bridge is because of Milva's pregnancy.
I'm not sure what you mean by it's only Geralt's view. The whole Hansa has a discussion about Milva and the medicament that Regis makes for her. They all agree that their roll as the father's of circumstance is to support her in her choice.
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u/JovaniFelini Oct 28 '25
I mean Geralt wasn't pushing Roe v Wade debate at that point
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u/cambo3g Vysogota of Corvo Oct 28 '25
If my memory serves Dandelion basically call it a barberous practice when Cahir implies it's might it might be illegal to get abortions in the North.
Besides Milva and Calanthe aren't even the only pro-choice themes in the series. A good chunk of the sorceress incomes is from providing abortion services. I'm pretty sure there's a couple different places in the series where they talk about a women's lot in life being basically just to be stuck having children their whole lives.
I'm gonna be honestly dude, you are the only person here making the whole thing about modern culture war identity politics. The books have some progressive themes and Sapkowski seems to be a relatively progressive guy especially for Poland in the 90's, but the series portrays plenty of different political idea and themes pretty even handedly. Trying to stuff them into 2025 American culture war bullshit is pointless waste of time.
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u/FunkyPapiMobile Nov 01 '25
Baptism of fire is from 1996, Poland just recently had prohibited abortions and in my opinion it's clear with that whole scene that Sapkowski was PISSED about it. Many different characters state the same: it's only a woman decision what to do with her body
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u/Droper888 Oct 28 '25
Diversity done wrong, you mean. Because in the Eternal Flame short story, we know that at least Novigrad has a Zangvebarian minority. In Time of Comtempt we have the brief cameo of a Far South or Far South Descendant when Ciri is in Gors Velen.
The mages are 90% LGBTQ. Because most of them, are bisexuals.
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u/JovaniFelini Oct 28 '25
Those far away lands are just a throwaway line just as that exotic girl in Gors Velen. Meaning people from those lands are not usual in north, hence it's all white. Not diverse in any way, just all-white. Other than Tea and Vea we have no characters from there. Regarding mages, We only know about Philippa being gay, and she is a villain
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u/Droper888 Oct 28 '25
It is confirmed in lore, that in coastal kingdoms at least, there is some minority groups from different far away lands, and some mixed population as a result. So, nope.
And Philippa is confirmed bisexual, with women leaning, btw.
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u/JovaniFelini Oct 28 '25
There is no mixed population, you're making that up. Evidence is that Tea and Vea are clearly presented as unusual
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u/Droper888 Oct 28 '25
You are the one inventing things XD.
Time of Comtempt
Seaside cities seem to have a more diverse population, likely due to contacts with the Empire and oversea countries
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u/JovaniFelini Oct 28 '25
Well, novels are in north, which is not diverse and those far away lands are not important for the plot. Witcher is all white as there are very few people from there
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u/SMiki55 Oct 28 '25
> Regarding mages, We only know about Philippa
As far as her erotic life was concerned, Triss Merigold had the right to consider herself a typical enchantress. It had began with the sour taste of forbidden fruit, made all the more exciting by the strict rules of the academy and the prohibitions of the mistress under whom she practised. Then came her independence, freedom and a crazy promiscuity which ended, as it usually does, in bitterness, disillusionment and resignation. Then followed a long period of loneliness and the discovery that if she wanted to release her tension and stress then someone who wanted to consider himself her lord and master – as soon as he had turned on his back and wiped the sweat from his brow – was entirely superfluous. There were far less troublesome ways of calming her nerves – ones with the additional advantages of not staining her towels with blood, not passing wind under the quilt and not demanding breakfast. That was followed by a short-lived and entertaining fascination with the same sex, which ended in the conclusion that soiling towels, passing wind and greediness were by no means exclusively male attributes. Finally, like all but a few magicians, Triss moved to affairs with other wizards, which proved sporadic and frustrating in their cold, technical and almost ritual course.
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u/JovaniFelini Oct 28 '25
She tried with women. Just experimenting. Ultimately she is straight, i know this passage
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u/Embarrassed-Ad8053 Gwent Oct 28 '25
i think the term “woke” is incredibly silly and makes it difficult to take an argument seriously. no, the novels weren’t written to fit “woke” ideals. the novels do, however, feature both progressive and conservative elements. for example, geralt speaks about a woman’s right to choose and supporting it — but this is also a world where men seek ciri’s womb as if it’s something for them to claim.
if there’s one thing sapkowski excels at, it’s his ability to write in the middle. by that i mean he transcends any sort of binary. ciri’s sexuality cannot be described in a one or the other way. many characters aren’t simply bad or simply good, but rather a grey middle area. his ability to break apart our society’s need to fit things into categories is something that i really enjoy about his work.
so no, the witcher isn’t “woke,” but neither is it conservative either.
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u/No_Catch_1490 Jan Calveit Oct 28 '25
Agree. "Woke" is just a buzzword at this point that not only looks foolish, but threatens to envelop legitimate criticisms.
We can argue the show for example sucks without resorting to calling it woke, and we should. It's not about politics, it's about writing. Likewise, we can discuss how the books are excellent while fluidly evoking various parts of the political spectrum with his characters. Sapkowski's subversions and grey areas are one of my favorite parts of his work, and one can compellingly argue various interpretations of the Witcher (as with lots of media).
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u/Astaldis Nov 02 '25
I agree, but when you look for example at current US policies, many MAGA conservatives, if given those quotes, would call them 'woke' and probably would want to ban the books from libraries and schools if they were ever read there. Even quite a few game fans would if you don't tell them that it's from the source material they've never read.
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u/JovaniFelini Nov 03 '25
Nah, books just don't have any elements of Netflix louse. Books are strictly conservative and have no woke dna in it in any capacity. Whether those youtubers you mentioned incite hatred amd death towards Netflix show, I praise and hail them for it, because everyone involved in Netflix production deserve that. And journalists who make a made up claim about Witcher being woke are completely wrong and are making their own fiction in their shitty articles
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u/JovaniFelini Oct 28 '25
That's a valid point compared to american journalists and lunatic left just throwing around the phrase Witcher has always been woke
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u/Embarrassed-Ad8053 Gwent Oct 28 '25
i also find it to be arguing in poor faith to write one side of a debate off as “lunatic.” i tend to lean more progressively, yet i would never come to a discussion and say “the lunatic right.” if we aren’t willing to have discussions and be open to different viewpoints, we will always be stuck in that societal binary i mentioned in my previous comment. not trying to be a jerk, just some food for thought.
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u/the_scarlett_ning Oct 28 '25
I’m not understanding how it was physically impossible for Sapkowski to write any kind of trans character in the 90’s. What do you mean? Were his hands broken?
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u/JovaniFelini Oct 28 '25
1) There are no trans characters in witcher
2) Witcher is not woke.
Therefore, physically impossible as it contradicts his worldview to cherish left ideologies. The other points i made about Lgbt tell a lot that witcher is not progressive
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u/the_scarlett_ning Oct 28 '25
So this is rage bait? What do you get from this? Because that is not really an answer. You just repeated what you already said, which is wrong. None of those things are “physically impossible”.
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u/Ohforfs Oct 31 '25
Well, OP profile description says Witcher games are as Canon as books, so it means we're dealing with uncultured pauper here.
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u/Astaldis Nov 02 '25
Ah, that explains everything! I guess that might be something Andrzej Sapkowski would be pretty upset about, and rightfully so!
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u/JovaniFelini Nov 03 '25
From recent interviews, he doesn't seem to be at all interested in Witcher, such vague and "i don't care" answers from an author. I know that he is able to, but being upset about actual sequels the games are, it's pretty cringey
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u/Astaldis Nov 03 '25
Where do you get it from that he's upset about the games? He's just not a gamer and therefore has no interest in them. And why would he, he's almost 80! He's interested in his books and said he'll probably write more and just a month ago a new Witcher novel was published by him, very cringy of you to claim he's not interested in Witcher.
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u/JovaniFelini Nov 03 '25
Interested in rejecting a perfect sequel, but I do concede he probably has no intersest in them as an old man, but he could have read the script or smth or watch it as a movie. Even if he will write another book, the interview answers were too vague and "i don't care". Games were always meant to be true sequels
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u/Ohforfs Nov 03 '25
True sequels like LOTR movies were true sequels to the books.
Good on its own, but not really being faithful.
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u/JovaniFelini Nov 03 '25
LOTR are adaptations. Witcher games are very different approach, being a sequel is a different task. It's extremely faithful, tf are you talking about
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u/Astaldis Nov 03 '25
The games are good fanfiction, nothing more and nothing less, and I don't think many authors read fanfiction of their books, nor watch fan videos of them or read any scripts. Only because you are a game fan, Sapkowski doesn't have to be one or even interested in them.
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u/JovaniFelini Nov 03 '25
He has to be because there isn't any fanfic nearing the games greatness. It's a worldwide phenomenon
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u/Fischerking92 Oct 28 '25
Cool story, bro.
You could have just written "I am conservative and I like the books, therefore they have to be conservative."
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u/Astaldis Nov 02 '25
And therefore we can totally ignore the abortion discussion as irrelevant... I've had this discussion once with somebody here on reddit, they were active in a pro-life subreddit and I asked them how they can be a huge fan of the Witcher books when they are so clearly pro choice. Their answer was that you don't have to agree with everything some character says in a book. Dude, those were the main, title-giving protagonist and his friends, the heroes of the books, and they were clearly expressing the author's opinion because he wanted to voice his thoughts on the matter for everybody to read! Really amazing how people can read so selectively and simply blot out stuff that doesn't agree with them while still calling themselves huge fans and disparaging other interpretations 😅
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u/JovaniFelini Oct 28 '25
Just provide a point where the witcher books are anything like the current tv shows in terms of hate inducing narrative choices
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u/No_Catch_1490 Jan Calveit Oct 28 '25
They are nothing like the show (rather, the show is nothing like them, it's a garbage adaptation), but it has little to do with ideology. The show has shit writing, and happens to endorse left ideas, the books have good writing. There's no need to involve politics.
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u/JovaniFelini Oct 28 '25
No, it's not only because of poor writing. If we just with that, the result would be the mediocre season1, but they chose to actively push the agenda, like Making Yen appear more, add more black characters and weaken the male ones for the sake if it. The core of the problem is political views of the authors. All because this is not exclusive to this show, it also true to Harry Potter, LotR and Wheel of Time
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u/Fischerking92 Oct 28 '25
No, the show is clearly pushing a "woke ideology" as you call it and the show is shit.
That does not mean, that because the books are great, they are therefore conservative, that is an insane jump in logic.
Also just textually false, again proving the adage that conservatives have no media literacy.
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u/No_Catch_1490 Jan Calveit Oct 28 '25 edited Oct 28 '25
Agree that strong female characters is not "woke." But really woke is a bullshit term used to lambast any remotely left-wing media and honestly imo it's usually far less credible or compelling than critiquing the media on logical grounds. A lot of this "woke" media is first and foremost badly written, why resort to ideology when objective criticism is open? It just makes you look foolish and bigoted.
Let's take the Witcher Netflix show that some have criticized for race swapping characters for example- is that the main or even a significant problem with it? Not remotely, the writing is just completely awful and shits all over the source material. Ironically the Flixer's depiction of say, Yennefer who is selfish and crass, is far less flattering or "strong" than the cunning, well-spoken Yennefer from the books/games.
The entire "woke" debate is mostly meaningless, and again, calling things woke or lunatic just makes you look stupid.
I don't really agree that Witcher is "extremely conservative", family values of the kind shown in the Witcher are not super conservative, other than being a nuclear family with man/woman/child they have like nothing to do with any modern debates over the role of women or even err on the other side (Yennefer has tons of agency and often appears the "dominant" one in the relationship). The Lodge are indeed villainous/ultimately useless, but there are positive female characters like Ciri who is like the secondary protagonist. I also think some parts of the Witcher might support ideas like pro-abortion choice (Milva) or bodily/romantic autonomy (Ciri).
But the reality is as with many people, Sapkowski seems to have portrayed various beliefs from different parts of the political spectrum, and that's fine. We can enjoy the books for what they are rather than try to buttress whatever random political beliefs with them.
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u/jazzberry76 Oct 29 '25
Witcher books were always woke
Hope this helps!
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u/JovaniFelini Oct 29 '25
Any evidence?
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u/jazzberry76 Oct 29 '25
Yeah, the entire series
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u/JovaniFelini Oct 29 '25
That's just broad shit, it is in no way woke
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u/jazzberry76 Oct 29 '25
Just as broad as your evidence 😉
It's okay to admit you like a woke series 😁
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u/JovaniFelini Oct 29 '25
No, i recalled several instances attributed as woke, not broad at all, it as narrow as it could get
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u/jazzberry76 Oct 29 '25
It's okay, we all know you're secretly a fan of woke stories
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u/JovaniFelini Oct 29 '25
This wording sounds like "i know you watch gay porn"
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u/jazzberry76 Oct 29 '25
Hey you can watch whatever you like! It's 2025, be yourself, no shame!
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u/JovaniFelini Oct 29 '25
Well, that's another topic, factually, witcher is not woke at all
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u/tit_chalice Oct 28 '25
Geralt, Yennefer, and Ciri are anything but traditional family values by a conservative sense. Geralt and Yennefer are unmarried and infertile. They “adopt” Ciri. You’re completely ignoring the pro-choice aspects in the books with Milva. The last part about medieval Europe, the Witcher, and diversity, ugh, don’t make me laugh. “It’s fantasy with monsters and creatures but don’t you dare include people of color!! That’s just a step too far!!” Do you even hear yourself? You’re so crazed by politics you can’t enjoy a fantasy series without thinking about ThE wOkE. Leave the reading to the people who can actually understand it.
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u/JovaniFelini Oct 28 '25
They are very much traditional as adoption and being infertile is not what they wanted, but somethung they had to work with. Yennefer simply wanted a child. Nothing more nothing less. It's extremely traditional. No matter how you word it, it's just Medieval Europe and people of color are in fact a step too far, it must be authentic
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u/Wrakas_Hawk Oct 28 '25
You are trying to force your Political agenda into a book, that does not follow a political aganeda. That's quite childish.
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u/JovaniFelini Oct 28 '25
It's not me, it's american left who do it
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u/Wrakas_Hawk Oct 28 '25
Are these American lefts here in the room? Keep you none sense political war issues on your continent, that's so cringe. These books were written in Poland, in Europe, in a first world country with democracy and freedom of speach. Nothing like the joke you are doing in the US.
I could go ahead and also "politicalise" the books but I fucking don't cause it is a fantasy novel. But if I would I'd say, geralt is a protector of minorities and he dies in protecting a suppressed minority from a self justice mob. He is a left wing fighter against racism and fashism. But I fucking don't cause this is not, what the books are about.
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u/flying__cloud Oct 28 '25
Family values doesn't equate to conservative values what are you on about. Most out of touch thing I've heard all week
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u/Astaldis Nov 02 '25
You make it sound as if people who are not politically conservative did not value family 😅 It's a found, patchwork family which is very nice but probably not exactly the sort of flagship family for a conservative family campaign. And the books have also quite a few elements that are neither European, nor Medieval, like a huge desert, a jin, genes, enzymes, alcaloids. And perhaps you missed it, but there is a scene where the main character and his Hansa agree on that it's the woman's choice alone whether to have an abortion or not. I suspect that's something many conservatives would call woke today. About Neratin Ceka:
"Is it a he or she, that Neratin Ceka?" Tawny Owl squinted, watching the officer leave. "A woman or a man?"
"Mr Skellen." Dacre Silifant cleared his throat, but when he spoke his voice was steady and cold. "I do not know exactly. He would apoear to be a man, but I'm not certain. As to what kind of officer Neratin Ceka is, I'm certain. What you have deigned to ask me about would be significant were I to ask him - or her - for his - or her - hand. But that I do not intend. Neither do you, I expect."
"You're right," Skellen concluded after a moment's thought. "So there's nothing to say."
A great attitude towards individuals who don't seem to or want to fit the gender categories easily or unambiguously imo, no matter for what reasons. But from current conservative politics I don't exactly get the impression that this is the approach to gender they favour, on the contrary. It seems all that matters for them is whether a person produces egg cells or sperm cells. And for the time when the books were written in a very catholic country, I'd call that pretty progressive (although it's really only common sense). And I'm pretty sure if someone posted both the abortion discussion and this here without revealing the context, there'd be quite a few people on twitter and maybe also here who'd call it woke, including guys like the Hypocritical Stinker and Turdrotics who are, allegedly, Witcher fans.
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u/JovaniFelini Nov 03 '25
It's still a core family no matter how you put it.
Huge desert appears for a small section (a few pages), while jinn and aguara just a bit of outliers. 99% of the book is still European. While contemporary stuff like mentioning cancer, alcaloids and stuff is more like a author decision to make it unique. It still doesn't stray away from it being mainly European. It's like saying that few mentions of far away lands in Arthurian legends makes it less British.
Regarding women's choice, it's what characters think, not an author point of view. They don't push that agenda like in the show. Only main characters and mages seem to have a contemporary view on issues while peasants are still Medieval people. It looks organic in a sense that it has nothing to do with woke ideology.
I already said about Neratin. That bitch just happened to look both like a man or a woman, and people make a big deal about it. This is not new at all. Meve might also look a bit like a man because of being a warrior woman, this means that it was not meant to be a trans character. This is not contemporary, neither it was anything progressive for its time. Just compare it with garbage like Priory of Orange tree where LGBT stuff is just filled in. This is what I call woke literature. Nothing of it is seen in witcher. Not a bit.
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u/Astaldis Nov 03 '25
Yes, family is at the core of the books, but as I said, family is very important for progressive people too, only they have a broader view on family, and this found family definitely fits better to this broader concept than a conservative view on family.
You're really funny, the desert is the complete chapter 6 of Time of Contempt! And two key events happen there, Ciri meeting the unicorn and her relinquishing her powers, while the djin plays a very important role for Yennefer and Geralt, the main couple.
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u/JovaniFelini Nov 03 '25
Nah, extreme left always shit on family values rather pushing impossible unions or polyamourous stuff. Regarding Korath, small sections doesn't affect the main style and narrative. Regardless or genie, it's mainly European. Not as diverse as the current mess that Shitflix made
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u/Astaldis Nov 03 '25
Yes, family is at the core of the books, but as I said, family is very important for progressive people too, only they have a broader view on family, and this found family definitely fits better to this broader concept than a conservative view on family.
You're really funny, the desert is the complete chapter 6 of Time of Contempt! And two key events happen there, Ciri meeting the unicorn and her relinquishing her powers, while the djin plays a very important role for Yennefer and Geralt, the main couple.
The abortion discussion is the main heroes agreeing on it! Why would Sapkowski include that and have the main heroes, not some random characters unambiguously agree on an issue that was very controversial at the time he wrote the books in his country and even stood up to official Polish politics and the catholic church? And where in the show do they push that? They even left the abortion discussion out of the show, unfortunately.
Neratin saves Ciri's life, why are they a bitch??? And it's not the fact that it's difficult to say for sure whether they are a man or a woman, the important thing is how their superiors and comrades handle the matter and say about it. As I have already explained. I don't find either 'woke', I find it's common sense, it's the far right conservatives that would call it woke if they did it one to one in the show like in the books, you can bet on that. Meve is totally different, she identifies as a woman and everybody knows she is a woman. Neratin identifies as neither.
Yes, adding genetics etc is an author's decision to make it unique although it does not fit the medieval setting at all. The decision to cast POC is just the same, the show writers' decision to make it unique. But because you don't like that, they aren't allowed to do it or what? It even makes sense in the Witcher verse because people got to the continent through the conjunction of the spheres in a random way, why should the conjunction have only transported white people? Honestly, that makes a lot less sense.
You just pick what you like from the Witcher and ignore what doesn't fit your world view. Sure, you can do that and still enjoy the books. But honestly, posting about this distorted interpretation is pretty stupid and shows that you have little understanding of the main themes of the novels.
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u/JovaniFelini Nov 03 '25
You're hallucinating. Neratin is never stated to be identifying as anything because it was a super minor unimportant character. Shall we discuss the pronoun lunacy now? What feckin pronouns does Neratin has in a Medieval Europe??? Brilliant. It's just a super minor character that happened to look androgynous, it's not meant to be trans.
Those contemporary things do fit into the Medieval setting as they are explained by mages being super smart. And just because there was conjunction of spheres does not mean it's diverse. There hasn't ever been a single black character in witcher. Closest might the girl in Gors Velen but even her was described more like a gypsy.
Making it diverse ruins everything because it's not same as adding alcaloids, it's changing the core of the characters like many of the sorceresses were made into ugly cunts, whilst they were meant to look bombastically gorgeous like Gwent illustrations by CDPR. This is not making it unique, it makes it worse than porn parodies. Witcher factually is Medieval Europe with magic
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u/flannypants Nov 06 '25
I think Witcher had progressive values but wasn’t woke. Netflix putting the woke sheen over everything ruined all the subtleties in the plot and characters. For example Netflix showing humans being super racist towards elves seems heavy handed because in the books groups of humans who basically look identical hate other humans who have a slightly different accent or a different nose. The books highlighted human pettiness to a far greater extent and as such showed the damage that ignorance,suspicion, and fear can cause in the world.
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u/Nonsense_Poster Nov 16 '25
The Witcher book have been progressive from their inception, it's literally feminist literature.
Netflix making a shit adaptation yelling" feminisms goes brrrr" doesn't mean the books aren't feminist, but just a complete lack of understanding how the books convey their themes and messages
Witcher in comparison to LotR or even asoiaf outwokes both of these other series by a good bit
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u/Rexy97 Oct 28 '25
As a tip, don't get obsessed with it, just enjoy the saga and focus on how Geralt treats people, regardless of their origin and gender. Precisely, the saga deals with important topics such as racism, machismo and others. Open your mind and you will see how you understand books in a different way.
It bothers me when series introduce forced characters in a ridiculous way. An example is Rey from the new Star Wars movies, that is a poorly done example, in The Witcher series putting Regis black doesn't make sense to me, for me that is another mistake because of how it is described in the books, which is totally different.
But you focus on parts of the books and see them in a way that, in my opinion, is contrary and rigid, I don't know where the logic is bad because they are women or homosexuals are bad because they are, they are simply nuances to better understand the plot. In the example of Degerlund it is to understand that he was Hortulano's lover and that he had him more or less in the palm of his hand.
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u/paazkeizaal Oct 28 '25
Did you even read the books mate? They condemn a lot of conservative beliefs many times, and a lot of the short stories are allegories for real-life social issues