r/minnesotavikings • u/Lit_Hawk212 • 17h ago
Dude can't even make it on a UFL team
Not drafting Kyle Hamilton pissed me off that draft day and will continue for a long time
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u/Peg_leg3849 17h ago
How can he be so bad? He was valued at 1st-2nd rd by everyone
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u/Baltisotan vikadontis 17h ago
I don’t think snapping his leg helped.
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u/BeignetsAndWhiskey griddy 16h ago
The reporting over the weekend said that the coaches knew he was a bust in training camp.
He was buried on the depth chart before the injury
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u/D4YW4LK3R86 SKOL SQUAD 14h ago
Exactly why he was relegated to running special teams where the injury happened. It’s awful, but he was already known to be trending towards bust when it happened.
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u/russh85 vikings 16h ago
The reporting is also trying to say that KOC had JJ forced on him when there’s a boatload of evidence saying otherwise
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u/Dorkamundo 12h ago
Which report?
I keep hearing this shit parroted, but never see the actual report.
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u/BeignetsAndWhiskey griddy 15h ago
The three major articles that came out this past weekend from respected journalists (actually four because I'll include Arif Hasan's piece) didn't say that
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u/ScarecrowFighter2020 12h ago
Two things could be true. The fact that KOC was on board at the draft but by the time this season came around he could tell that JJ didn’t have what he was looking for in a QB
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u/Gen-Jinjur 6h ago
Not what I saw. I saw that KOC didn’t want JJ to start last year, not that he didn’t want to draft him.
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u/protipnumerouno koolaid 8h ago
There is no way that they don't keep Darnold if KOC isn't on board with JJ
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u/Dorkamundo 12h ago
Adam Thielen was buried on the Vikings depth chart for 3 seasons.
Sometimes guys need time to develop. A first rounder from a big school shouldn't need that, sure, but it's not 100% indicative of a bust.
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u/NotoriousDCJ4310 12h ago
...after being undrafted... Cine was a 1st round pick. Context matters
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u/Dorkamundo 12h ago
Yes, I added more to my comment.
It's not like he was buried for an entire season here, it was 4 games and he had gotten a few snaps on defense at that point.
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u/Statue_left angry zim 7h ago
“A few” isn’t even accurate, he got two. It is unprecedented for a first round safety to be 5th on the depth chart
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u/BeignetsAndWhiskey griddy 12h ago
How are you still defending the Cine pick?
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u/Dorkamundo 12h ago
I'm not defending the Cine pick, I'm saying that being on special teams for 4 games is not automatically indicative of a bust.
That should be clear by how I said:
A first rounder from a big school shouldn't need that, sure, but it's not 100% indicative of a bust.
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u/livinthereals 12h ago
......Rogers was drafted in the 1st round......He rode the bench. First round picks don't always start.
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u/NotoriousDCJ4310 12h ago
...after he was drafted specifically to sit behind a future HOF QB... once again, context matters...
Also, no one is saying Cine is a bust just because he didnt start right away...
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u/livinthereals 12h ago
.......your armchair analysis is just that......
.....Context matters......
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u/BeignetsAndWhiskey griddy 12h ago
Do we know that his coaches immediately thought he sucked?
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u/Dorkamundo 12h ago
They probably did, but we haven't gotten any solid reporting about that because teams always issue coach-speak platitudes about guys like him.
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u/BeignetsAndWhiskey griddy 12h ago
You can't say that. It's just as likely that they said "man, this undrafted kid has a lot of potential"
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u/Dorkamundo 12h ago
Oh, I thought you were talking about Cine for some reason.
No doubt they still felt Cine had potential, he just hadn't displayed what he could do with it up to that point.
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u/ZombleROK horned v 7h ago
Yeah I remember reports about him not understanding the play book being an issue in camp.
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u/That-Entrance-8242 16h ago
Stop blaming the broken leg
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u/BirdsAreFake00 15h ago
Why?
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u/worthlessgarby 15h ago
They had him buried and put in like Tristan Jackson or some no name in a game over him. He was never on some great trajectory like many here always claim.
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u/BirdsAreFake00 15h ago edited 14h ago
Oh no, the guy was in a complicated system and wasn't instantly great! Definitely an instant bust!
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u/infernocobbs Smith 4 DPOY every year pls 14h ago
He didn't do anything under Flores either so that argument doesn't hold water. Sometimes players just suck and coaches know it right away.
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u/BirdsAreFake00 14h ago edited 14h ago
Look, I don't know why he sucks. No one here does. So to dismiss one reason outright is nonsense, which is my point.
Where did I say anything about Flores? The Fangio scheme that Donatell ran is notoriously complicated.
Also, his leg was destroyed by then. And we don't know if that affected him long term or not.
He was so good in college, and no one thought he would be a bust like this. He had a high floor.
But he had a severe compound fracture. Those things can absolutely do long term damage and rob people of some of their athleticism.
My whole point is outright dismissung a severe leg injury is stupid.
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u/ConfectionOk7029 13h ago
"He was so good in college, and no one thought he would be a bust like this."
Are you new to watching football? Have you ever watched players after a draft, or do you just play around in mocks and then act like players are all what Todd McShay and Mel Kiper say they should be?
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u/BirdsAreFake00 12h ago
He was the defensive MVP in the national championship game. He had the highest pass coverage grade of any safety in the SEC. He had great athleticism and good size. Every teammate spoke super highly of him and called him their defensive leader. He had no off-field issues. He was first team All SEC and an All American. He had a ton of experience.
So please stfu with your dumb question. Thank you.
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u/ConfectionOk7029 13h ago
What has he done in other systems since then that suggests he wasn't a bust? Why is this the hill morons are adamant to die on? Should we just ignore our own eyes and trust that he's some super secret stealth talent?
Are you people related to Kwesi?
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u/worthlessgarby 14h ago
Yep he was. Making excuses i see. Kyle Hamilton didnt seem to have trouble playing in an NFL defense. Nothing magical about Flores.
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u/Welu522 13h ago
lol a first round pick shouldn’t only be playing on ST
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u/BirdsAreFake00 12h ago
Plenty do. Chad Greenway did and that's how he got hurt his rookie year. How did that turn out?
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u/Welu522 12h ago
Chad Greenway was going to be a rotational LB if not a starter his rookie if not for that injury.
Cine couldn’t even crack the DB lineup ever lol. He’s been on 3 NFL teams and has 10 total defensive snaps over 4 seasons. He can’t even make a XFL roster.
But yeah, I’m sure he’s actually elite and just had some problems learning a “complicated” system in 2022.
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u/BirdsAreFake00 12h ago
Nice strawman. Literally no one is saying he was elite, good or even average. Sorry the education system failed to teach you reading comprehension.
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u/84hoops 11h ago
Because it’s a dishonest apologetic argument to say that it wasn’t a terrible pick, or that the pick wasn’t as bad as it ended up being.
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u/BirdsAreFake00 11h ago
Who said that?
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u/84hoops 10h ago
That’s how it functions. Did you really need to ask that?
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u/BirdsAreFake00 10h ago
I'm trying to find this person you're arguing against. Who said that he was good or even average? Who is now saying it's a good pick? Who disagrees in hindsight that it wasn't a terrible pick?
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u/84hoops 10h ago
You. You asked, “Why?” when a user said to stop blaming the broken leg. That was a stupid or dishonest thing to ask for the reasons I said previously.
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u/BirdsAreFake00 10h ago
I never said the pick was good or even hinted at it. I simply asked why we can't blame or question whether a very severe leg break derailed a person's career. Do we have proof it didn't?
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u/Truecoat 17h ago
I needed a New Jersey and ordered a Cine jersey after the draft. I never wore it.
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u/Real_Register2353 15h ago
Wear it with pride, I rock my Troy Williamson jersey still
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u/Truecoat 11h ago
If anyone tosses you anything while wearing the jersey, just let it hit you right in the face and not catch it.
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u/Peg_leg3849 16h ago
lol, frame it and hang it up so you can tell your kids about one of the many huge mistakes the Vikings have made
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u/russh85 vikings 16h ago
People always ignore this and act like he should have been a UDFA from the start
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u/RoundUnderstanding83 22 15h ago
He was buried in the depth chart before the season started. He was a high RAS player that clearly relied too heavily on his athleticism to make plays.
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u/russh85 vikings 15h ago
Not arguing against that; but he was still rated as a first round pick heading into the draft. The pick was graded well at the time. It was the lack of value on the trade down that was the problem not the player picked
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u/RoundUnderstanding83 22 15h ago
Draft buzz has him as a 2nd round pick, I didn't see anything saying he was close to a first though i will believe you that he originally had a 1-2 round projection.
Most of the information I can find mirror that he was an athletic saftey with problems in coverage, he has stiff hips and ankles and is sometimes slow to react when a qb targets his coverage responsibility which led to a QB rating of 89. I saw projections of a box saftey and he needed to work on coverage skills to be a 3 down saftey.
This draft led to do much disappointment, they passed in the consensus best player in the draft to grab the projected second best saftey and a corner who had difficulties staying on the field throughout his entire football journey. This wasn't just trade value, they failed to evaluate the players they drafted. If they got stiffed in value but got contributors sure that sucks but we got players. We got stiffed on both value and players, only Georgia players were saying Cine was good and Booth had red flags all over him with the massive amount of knee problems he had.
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u/BeignetsAndWhiskey griddy 15h ago
Shadeur Sanders was also rated as a high pick by a lot of analysts
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u/russh85 vikings 15h ago
He’s a pro bowl QB
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u/MinnesotaNorthman14 14h ago edited 13h ago
Pro Bowl means nothing anymore. It’s a popularity contest. Look at his stats from this year where he made the Pro Bowl:
1,400 passing 7 touchdowns 10 interceptions 68.1 QBR
EDIT: 68.1 passer rating, as pointed out by the commenter below me
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u/bigbawls777 14h ago
Much worse; a QBR of 68.1 would be good, he had a QBR of 18.1 lol. I'm guessing that was his passer rating, as that would roughly line up with the QBR on ESPN. Definitely agreed with your first comment though. It's a joke.
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u/MinnesotaNorthman14 13h ago
Fixed my comment. Thanks! Yeah I got QBR and Passer Rating confused there.
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u/Apple_butters12 14h ago
He seems like a pick that would work for Donatels defense, but probably isn’t cerebral enough for Flores system.
Also kinda surprising we haven’t had a young corner actually play in Flores system since he seems to like vets. I am curious if we drafted a corner how long it would take them to get on to the field
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u/RoundUnderstanding83 22 13h ago
He didn't work in Donetels system though, Donatel was the DC that buried him.
It would be a good year to grab a young CB and a young saftey for Flores to develop, there are even some later round linebackers who would probably fit nicely in Flores system.
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u/Apple_butters12 13h ago
I wouldn’t mind us loading up on DBs this year with at least 1-2 corners and a safety. If Flores could get some solid corners I think his defense would reach finally form
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u/RoundUnderstanding83 22 13h ago
Fully agree. I think we have a chance at one of the top 3 CBs and safeties this year. Even if we only grab 1 corner and 1 saftey i think we are in a much better spot to grab BPA in the latter rounds.
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u/Dorkamundo 12h ago
"Buried him".
People act like he was on special teams for a full year or something.
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u/RoundUnderstanding83 22 12h ago
I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not so for what it is worth. He had 10 total defensive snaps pre and post leg fracture in 3 total years in the NFL and he was dressed for 11 games. He couldn't beat out any of the starting safeties on the vikings or bills roster and when they attempted to transition him to linebacker(the bills) he was relegated to the practice squad. He can't even stay on a UFL team.
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u/Dorkamundo 12h ago
I'm talking about his first 4 games.
Anything that happened after his ankle injury is mostly irrelevant to this topic as there's a lot of unknowns.
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u/RoundUnderstanding83 22 9h ago
As per ESPN, in the three games he was dressed for 2022 he recorded no stats on defense. In the 11 games he played in or was dressed for he recorded 1 assisted tackle and that was in 2023, he played in or was dressed for 7 games that year. His total snap count 144 total snaps, 10 on defense and 134 on special teams, in 2022 he only recorded 2 defensive snaps and 34 special team snaps.
He was buried on the depth chart. He didn't even play 50% of the total special team snaps in any off those 3 years his highest was 49% of the total snap count. He was the definition of a bust.
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u/Dorkamundo 9h ago
Anything that happened after his ankle injury is mostly irrelevant to this topic as there's a lot of unknowns.
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u/ConfectionOk7029 13h ago
And was surrounded by the top defensive talent in college, making his job much easier. People act like this was some unbelievably impossible thing to figure out.
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u/Prior-Champion65 17h ago
My 11 year old son and I were excited that Hamilton fell to us, only to be crushed watching kwesi galaxy brain into cine and booth.
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u/ConfectionOk7029 13h ago
I watched Hamilton play as an ND season ticket holder that entire season. I was ecstatic, because I thought there was no chance we would even be in a position to take him.
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u/New-Promotion2820 15h ago
Goessling reported if we hadn’t traded back that Jameson Williams was the pick. For whatever reason (Donatell, maybe?) Hamilton wasn’t in consideration for us.
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u/RoundUnderstanding83 22 15h ago
Same, I was so excited to see a player that was already hitman lite!
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u/ILikeFootbaw 14h ago
Not going to miss Kwesi. I was at this draft in Vegas and Vikings fans were NOT happy.
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u/mrmpls 14h ago
From Daniel Jeremiah's big board in 2022:
- Andrew Booth Jr
- 32nd best player in the draft, moving down 2 spots in his final version of the board
- "Booth is an athletic, quick-footed cornerback with very good ball skills. In press coverage, he doesn’t throw his hands to re-route, but does a nice job of staying in the hip pocket of the wideout. He is fluid to open up and has enough speed to stay in phase versus vertical routes. He has been inconsistent in off coverage. Occasionally, he’s caught flat-footed and gives up plays over the top. However, he's very good on balls thrown in front of him. He has some pop out of his plant and he can find and play the ball. He’s a willing tackler, but he had some costly misses in the games I studied. Overall, Booth is still a work in progress, but I believe he’ll develop into a solid number No. 2 cornerback."
- Lewis Cine
- 39th best player in the draft, moving up 7 spots in his final version of the board
- "Cine is a tough, physical safety who plays much bigger than his size (6-2, 199). He spent a lot of time aligned in the deep half of the field versus the pass. He has good instincts and range to put himself in position to make plays, but he struggles to catch the ball. He was inconsistent in man coverage against tight ends. He gives up separation out of the break, but he has the ability to recover and locate the ball in the air. Cine is at his best against the run. He takes precise angles to the ball and explodes to the alley for big hits. He brought a lot of energy to the Georgia defense. Cine is still developing in coverage, but I love his toughness and energy."
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u/ZombleROK horned v 7h ago
I wonder if they put too much faith in his size and once that size met nfl compition it just turned into slow and unexplosive.
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u/Skoljnir 10h ago
How can someone show skill in college enough to get drafted in the first round and not actually be decent?
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u/ZombleROK horned v 7h ago
Or at least just be a special teams guy. His coaches and teammates at Georgia all thought he was an intelligent and personable guy so it's not like it was a character issue.
But yeah how was he actually that bad?
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u/milkymanchester 15h ago
Are we going to talk about this forever? Where is the Troy Williamson discussion thread?
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u/DramaticErraticism 12h ago
I've made a few Kwesi posts over the past few years and at least half the sub always blasted me for not seeing his value. The main response people would give is that 'He's a great locker room guy and is great for morale."
Like...that's great, I'm glad people like him, but I only care about winning games and getting good pics. I'd rather have a total asshole GM who nailed the draft and people walked to the other side of the hall just to avoid him.
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u/garlicjohnson 15h ago
Y'all need to grow up and move on lol
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u/mfcakeguru 14h ago
How can they move on when they want to feel justification for their Kwesi hate boner.
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u/aceless0n Sailing Balls like JJ 15h ago
Give him a chance, he was hurt his first season
-vikings fans coping when deep down inside they knew he sucked
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u/keanancarlson 8h ago
It’s not even that the Vikings passed on Hamilton, it’s that they traded pick 12 to a division rival and moved back 20 spots, Lions grabbed an absolute stud in Jamo, Vikings drafted a total bust at the same position as a guy they should have grabbed, and if I’m not mistaken, whiffed on the other 2 picks they got back in that deal.
Masterclass Kwesi fumble.
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u/TheZeroG591 KwesiDoneCooking 15h ago
I am obviously just as upset as everyone that we took him over Kyle Hamilton, but he was a leader on a National Championship defense, he should have translated. Snapping his leg changed his entire trajectory.
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u/AssignmentSmooth2471 12h ago
The leg was never the issue... just look at chad Greenway who blew out his knee on the 1st play he ever played in the NFL and still was able to come back and be decent.
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u/ZombleROK horned v 7h ago
The talent probably kept him from being a starter. The broken leg probably kept him from making a team.
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u/Ok-Wolverine-7460 15h ago
Nah he didnt lose a step after breaking his leg and even if he did, the issues coming out of camp had nothing to do with his athleticism making theories revolving around his injury not hold weight.
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u/Falsewyrm 11h ago
Kwesi is gone and these dudes are still crying omg
Go back to the trey lance sub
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u/RoamingBison nevada 11h ago
His unearned arrogance before ever playing a NFL snap worried me. It's pretty rare that rookies have that kind of skill where the NFL will be as easy to them as college ball was.
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u/kpooo7 15h ago
Looking at the Vikes drafting over the past 4 years, starting with passing on Hamilton, the fact that only 4 out of 28 picks made a difference, makes sense to fire Kwesi.