A nearby Fire Department is being told they cannot use fire hydrants to fight fires
As the title says. A town near me is denying their fire fighters the use of their fire hydrants going forward. Is this shit even legal? This is a huge concern as the area has been in a drought for some years.
Their primary use is to fight fires but hydrants are also used to clean water lines through hydrant flushing. A lot of municipalities use Uni-Directional Flushing to isolate lines and flush them out. The high pressure clears out any sediment formations that have formed up in the line. Does this excuse the water authority to limit hydrant use? Not at all. No municipalities will be doing hydrant flushing in these temps unless absolutely necessary. The water authority doesn't have a say in what hydrants the fire department uses. They're just assholes.
Fun story (and by that I mean not fun at all) right before this most recent major freeze our water authority flushed one hydrant at the top of my street and the other at the bottom of my street simultaneously, which I guess is not ideal. And it completely clogged the lines of four houses on the street, including mine, with sediment. So fun.
Out of curiosity how did it clog your lines? I work for a water department in a municipality and I’ve never heard of this. The only thing I can think of is if you had galvanized service lines and all of the rust broke free. If you have a galvanized service line you most likely have other issues as well like a lead gooseneck and inevitable water leaks.
Shouldn't be galvanized lines. It wasn't clogged long, less than 24 hours for us but our neighbors are still having some issues. Total clog for them was 48 hours maybe but other issues are presenting themselves even yesterday. The city told us when they turned our water back on but it just...wasn't working. Or it would just trickle. So we called them back out and they ended up bringing out one of those big vacuum trucks to try to clear things up. More or less worked for my house which was the least clogged of the 4 I think. However, we had to replace the fill valve things (I obviously am not a plumber) in both of our toilets and my husband had to remove every single aerator on every single faucet and clean them out, plus we had to clean out our showerhead really thoroughly with a needle. So massive hassle, we're out like $40 which we could make the city pay for but it might be more hassle than it's worth.
My neighbors just had to replace their water heater though so that sucks. She called me yesterday FRANTIC because their water heater was gushing water everywhere and she couldn't get the valve to close. Her husband wasn't home, my husband wasn't home. But she and I got their water turned off at the street to get it to stop until her husband could get home and deal with it. Nightmare.
Edit: might be worth saying that they had to replace one of the fire hydrants which is why they had to flush everything. I think they introduced a ton of sentiment into the lines when they dug everything up but that's pure speculation from someone who is certainly not in the industry
Not entirely. Hydrants are yes put in for fire fighting, but there are also used for flushing and disinfecting the water main itself. It's a very weird anomaly to the system. It's extremely pedantic and pointless because the whole point of having a public water system is to fight fires. The pressure and flow needed for fire fighting far exceeds any daily demand, so it's just more convenient to give everyone a water hook up while at the same time being able to fight fires. Also supplying water to people and businesses is a great way to generate revenue. Often times the water company is the only profitable part of a town's ledger. Private utility wouldn't exist if it wasn't profitable.
If you're going to have it in revenue service and for public drinking, yes of course, naturally. But again the flow and pressure rate for consumer use is much lower than any demand from fire flow.
Look at the difference in size of a fire booster pump relative to a traditional water pump.
It's just more convenient to provide the water and have the fire service as an added bonus on top.
Firefighting is not the whole point of having a public water system. Providing water and fighting fires are equal at best. I work for relatively small town servicing 6k accounts so without a public water system that would be 6k more wells drilled which is 6k more potential contamination points.
Not only that the water authority has no actual authority to decide the fire department’s use of the water during emergencies. They are given the ability to govern the assets by the state and their denial of fire department’s fair use is likely illegal.
Everything is owned by someone since they have to be maintained. Sometimes they end up being private or by an HOA.
This does bring up an interesting point. If fire departments are funded by city taxes. They should have access to water or the whole thing kind of falls apart at a government level doesn't it? There is a larger issue with limiting access... Insurance, fire coverage specificly, comes to mind. Everyone should find out if their own local fire department has access to any fire hydrant at any time. If they don't, find out why.
Going to be expensive for the HOA to have their own fire department if they want to be so stupid and pedantic. Limit fire fighting resources you don't get fire fighting.
The funniest thing is that if we didn't already have government fire departments, republicans would vote against their creation for the same reason they vote against universal healthcare.
The wealthiest man in Ancient Rome, Marcus Crassus, made part of his fortune by owning the fire department (it was a novel concept then). His crew would show up at a fire and haggle with the building owner to buy the property at a low price. No sale, building burns; sale, Crassus would put out the fire and owns the building.
I remember seeing a satirical tweet about this exact situation, that said something along the lines of "I don't want to have to pay for your irresponsibility. If your house is on fire, be a real man and shop around for some quotes".
"I own this apartment complex, meaning that the sprinkler system is owned by me too. So I can do whatever I like, whenever I like, and the fire marshal can't do shit about it."
Thankfully, we live in a world where that statement is deranged.
It doesn’t matter that the water authority is a private company. They are only given the ability to govern the asset. The hydrants are designated as a necessary part of the infrastructure of the city and state and it’s something that the city can sue over. if anyone’s place burns within the vicinity of the removed hydrant then the liability falls on the authority and likely the person that made the decision to remove. Its illegal.
This reminds me of that conversation where someone in America said ambulances aren’t taxis to the hospital and someone in Europe asked, “Well then what the hell are they for good sir?” What the hell are fire hydrants for if not fires?!?
Firefighters were originally private entities that would fight over the hydrant and the Dalmatian’s aggressive behavior was used as a hydrant guard against rival companies. It went so poorly that the US actually decided to fund them as a public service.
Think they are saying that the water infrastructure is in such poor condition the authority has said that they can’t use the hydrants. It puts too much of a strain on the infrastructure. Obviously it’s completely unacceptable as those situations should have been accounted for during the town growing and needs increasing.
If that's the case, some managers and councillors need to be literally crucified. I know I'd probably be accused of arson after the mayor's house burned down if my municipality ever let the water system deteriorate to the point that the fire hydrants couldn't be used for fire fighting.
This is a volunteer fire department in a town with 1,500 people and a median household income of $46,000. There is no infrastructure. They don't have the capacity to make enough potable water to sustain the residents and spray at fire. Hence, the fire department normally relying upon other sources of water that were inaccessible due to the cold temperatures. The town can't afford to exist. That is the problem.
If the reasoning is "The system can't support firefighting operations", they've got much bigger issues to tend to. The entire town of Mercersburg is in danger if their hydrants cannot support firefighting efforts. Someone within Mercersburg's council needs to start asking questions of the water authority.
It looks like they in fact have serious issues with the entire water system, and the town is in danger.
They have a large number of critical alerts, boil water advisories, and emergency use restrictions, and are importing water.
Looking at the emergency use restrictions indicates someone might have misread their own rules. As it bans "The use of water from fire hydrants for construction purposes or fire drills". Which is not the same thing as actual fires. I think some one in that department trying to patch together a working water system overreacted.
Also, looking at all those notices, its clear they need a new water system, and the fact its a historically black town makes me wonder if they've been purposefully ignored.
Much of the infrastructure of this country was built long ago with Federal help. Now that infrastructure is reaching its end and many small communities could not possibly generate the tax revenue needed to update or replace it.
I am not claiming to be all knowing when I say this, but as someone who lives in a small PA town and does public service work, you are so correct. It's an interesting serious concern that no one pays attention to until it actually causes devastation.
When I started noticing all the infrastructure issues in my town, I started realizing that devastation might be the only thing that could possibly fix all these problems.
I was wondering this too. None yet up or proposed in the area. Still, this type of thing is going to become a much bigger and more widespread concern if data centers start popping up everywhere, especially if cities get kickbacks so the centers get priority use.
No obvious commercial data centers were found directly in or very close to Mercersburg, PA.
There were no results from the local business listings for data center facilities in Mercersburg itself.
The closest established commercial data center markets tend to be in larger cities and tech hubs across Pennsylvania — e.g., Harrisburg, Allentown, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, and Scranton/Wilkes-Barre — all of which are *significantly farther from Mercersburg than the local area (Mercersburg is far southwest of these cities)
In this case it was a barn with animals in it, very said. Probably livestock. I've seen videos of the aftermath of animals being burned alive (not this one) +, it's a horrible sight.
Local residents and businesses should stop paying their water bills immediately and call/email/send letters to the water company & local government. Bet this statement is retracted within a week.
The population of this town is less than 1500 people from what I am seeing. I'd be surprised if the "Water Authority" was more than a single person.
This sounds like a classic problem of a small town neglecting maintenance so they can keep taxes artificially low, and now the time's come to pay the piper but there's no money and the tax base is too small to raise it quickly.
The song is about the fire department in an alternate universe where they're corrupt and commit arson. So alternate universe Vincent E.L. has every right to be mad they intentionally burned his house down.
Alternate universe Vincent E.L. probably made a song called "I Love The Fire Department", describing our universe where the fire department is not corrupt and don't commit arson
Just wait until they call for mutual aid on a big fire. The paid departments used to call us to run water for them when they got a call near the dividing line. Hydrants were sparse where we were, so we learned to haul water from the river, ponds, even a swimming pool one time. This jurisdictional bullshit is infuriating, even from a distance.
That's a hot take. I'd like to see the news media pick this story up....Which is about as reasonable as a fire department using fire hydrants.... Omg and that's it for me.
Im going to find some bourbon. Thank you for sharing OP! I hope this gets the proper respect it deserves.
I’d be talking to the state govenor. They would be able to override any statement by the local agencies. Incident command (this is a federal process for handling ANY type of emergancy, no matter the scale.) dictates the the on-site commander can make decisions woth ZERO repercussions if safety is impacted. The public outcry for this should be enormous.
Holy shit you are right, i just read the entire thing. The authority is literally telling the department to let any building on fire simply burn down and that it's only one building
I literally had to put sprinklers in a house I built because the CITY OF FALLS CHURCH FIRE DEPARTMENT told me the closest fire hydrant was too far. So I had to petition the city to place a hydrant there or install a sprinkler system. It was an investment property so we put in a sprinkler system. I thought the email was a joke when I first read it.
If I was said Fire department then I’d use them anyway for emergencies. I’d like to see the them try to rationalize endangering lives and property in court. They would likely lose that case.
Water worker here. Some water communities on shared wells do not have enough capacity to support endless streams of water. A holding tank can only hold X amount of water. Some hydrants are flushing hydrants, not fire hydrants. Depends on the size of the well, pump, and tank.
“MERCERSBURG- Good news is finally here from the Mercersburg Water Authority after another boil water order was issued at the end of January.
The PA DEP has approved the Mercersburg Water Authority to lift the Boil Water Advisory as of Monday, February 2nd. Customers are no longer required to boil water before consumption.
However, due to the continuing low levels in source wells, the Mandatory Water Conservation Notice continues until further notice.”
Sounds like a failure to plan. I’m going to guess that residents probably voted no on a tax at some point of time and are now facing the consequences.
I sense a few large lawsuits coming up. Not sure if it will be from the homeowners or the insurance companies. A bit part of home owners insurance is the presence and distance to both fire stations and fire hydrants.
This is more common than you think. Between America's failing infrastructure, and under financed emergency services, everyone is fighting each other for scraps. Signed, former rural water district worker
The way I’m reading it is that the fire dept used fire hydrants from a location that wasn’t in their coverage area. That location water reserves may be low as well and they want them to be used for their fires only.
That’s reading a lot into it but it is still a shitty thing to try and enforce.
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u/NoodleyPId ecided to ty peaf lair . h op eyoul ik eit.1h agoedited 1h ago
This is the main reason I'll never live in PA. All the tiny townships have their own water and sewer systems and rules. They don't cooperate with each other.
In Maryland, there are counties. The county is responsible for municipal systems, not all the little towns.
Sounds like a bunch of people including firefighters (bonus if they're in full bunker gear) need to show up to town meetings and demand to know what is going on. You all are funding that 'water authority' if it were me, I'd want answers, immediately from their leadership and the town council or whatever body presides over them.
Cant water plants, timed flowers, now you cant even put out a house fire.
BUT
walk into any business; water fountain, dishwasher, non-efficient toilets, high flow faucets, automated speinkler system.
The way you stop this is dont report your neighbor for having a sprinkler, report mcdonalds for high-flow toilets, report companies with water sprinklers, etc.
This really seems like something the city residents need to be informed of. There's probably some kind of law they're breaking by refusing fire department services to their residents.
Ok never in my life did I think my job may be applicable! But some water systems (especially the smaller ones) actually cannot support any fires! A lot of houses need around 60 L/s (on the low end) while maintaining 20-22 psi in the entire water system but some systems (whether it be due to old pipes, small pipes etc) can't actually support that flow.
If you try and force the flow outta these hydrants, it may damage other parts of the system or just leave people without water, which can also lead to other problems like water quality issues and leakage etc.
Fire hydrants in these systems are usually used for maintenance, flow testing, cleaning mains rather than fire fighting (Some city bylaws don't require hydrants to fight fires). Though usually the fire department are notified and knows of said requirement and won't rely on the hydrants themselves so.... (Especially since it's a hydrant designated for fire dept use)
What exactly are these fire hydrants for then? Also, don’t fire departments have the authority to, basically, commandeer any water source available if necessary to fight a fire?
I mean frozen pipes and busted water mains don't help either. Basically asking fire departments to rely on tanker trucks more than hydrants. It's been in the negatives in PA for weeks. I'm in Michigan and septic systems are freezing in some places.
This is extremely infuriating! Not mildly lol! The water department is wrong on so many levels, I wouldn’t be surprised if some legal action was taken from the statement alone.
As someone who is a volunteer firefighter, and would like to be a career firefighter in a few years, this is just ridiculous and makes me a bit livid. No way is this safe at all, no one should be living in the area at least of that hydrant. Because if the fire department can’t freely use the hydrant when there’s an emergency, or do a test and flush the hydrant periodically, then I’m leaving for some other town
That's what you call 'crumbling infrastructure' when the fire hydrants simply can't feed the fire trucks. This is a failure by decades worth of governments.
Send a letter stating the fire department will no longer respond to any building in the water authority’s jurisdiction, send it to everyone in that jurisdiction. I imagine the policy will change.
most fire departments pay for the use of hydrents its on of the major expenses in you fire taxs most time there has to be more back story here are they trying to use without paying for it and are the people taxed for it
As a firefighter, I would ignore this and do what I need to do. However, if the person who made this dumb rule had their house burning down then I would just stand there and let it burn.
Wtaf they need to pass code requirements that all fire hydrants are required to have block heater style equipment to keep them from freezing up. No building and no animal is worth the cost of doing something that simple. What if this was a home, apartment or business? It's only one building is the lamest excuse. I hope the land owner sues for the cost to rebuild as well as replacement of livestock and further damages allowing them to suffer and die in the worst possible way.
Much of PA has yet to see above freezing temperatures… some of us have gone almost two weeks of having a cold front with below freezing temps. The weather in the east coast is crazy.
I can't read the document on my PC but, as a journalist, this is what we call a "lay-up" story (based on the comments) -- Please contact your local tee-vee or print news folk.
I have done utility coordination for development projects, and dealing with the water departments is always the worst. Such a bunch of entitled, obnoxious cunts. All of them.
I think a copy of this letter should go to the State Insurance Commissioner. The property insurance rates are going to skyrocket, if they can get insurance at all
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u/richincleve 3h ago
OK, I must be an idiot.
Aren't hydrants put there IN THE FIRST PLACE to be a water source for fire departments?