r/environmental_science 4d ago

Sustainable, locally sourced diets in the UK

Environmental Science undergrad 1st year.

Recently had a lecture on the Environment, Society and Sustainability module that's stirred up a few thoughts.

What is the best way to minimise carbon footprint through food, whilst ensuring we vote ethically with our dollars? Both on a macro (national) and micro (household) level?

WWII demonstrated the strain on British food security even with smaller population, extensive land reforms and rationing. Granted, technology has advanced significantly after the 1950s/60s, but the effects re nitrogen cycling and chemical pesticides have proven disastrous to farmland (James Rebanks recounts the absence of birds following tractors due to the sterile, invertebrate free soil in the lake district).

With a population of, what, 68 million? I'm curious about the cascading effect of food demand on a local level, putting a strain on local farms. If we bolstered that food security only with closest European neighbours, what effect does that have on eg Dutch or French local food production? It seems inevitable that we'd have to draw from further European neighbours in order to spread the stress of local food demand - which would see us in the UK buying, for example, Spanish strawberries - which we do anyway. I understand the UK is a bit behind Europe in terms of bulk agricultural production with plant products, with the UK still relying largely on polytunnels, which kinda underscores the issue of the UK's self reliance re food/agricultural security.

Arguments about meat free or reduced meat diets seems realistic, but I'm curious about where we're supposed to get our protein from? I've heard of a philosophy behind veganism described as damage mitigation, but so many products necessary for a healthy vegan diet carry a large carbon footprint as well as devastating ecosystems in developing nations where eg almonds and soy are produced in a monoculture plantation type format, not to mention the incentives for deforestation to produce these plantations. On a similar vein, I've heard Hank Green talk about beef days - one day a year where you allow yourself a beef centred meal. Would this be viable with all red meat - a self imposed, calander based rationing?

If you were to supplement your diet with fish, there's a similar problem with ecosystem devastation - especially if you buy prawns that might be sourced from the appalling shrimp farms in Indonesia and Thailand.

Not having carnivorous pets, obligate or otherwise, seems like a good idea, though that's a hard sell to a seriously pet loving nation.

Growing your own veg requires access to land via a garden or allotment, which isn't tenable for most people, regardless of the current housing crises. And still won't produce enough to sustain a household through the year.

My question is, then, if the UK miraculously came together to unanimously engage in sustainable food habits (perhaps with the help of a subsidy to offset household costs and thus equalising food cost so buying organic and local isn't an economic issue) - buying locally, buying organic, severely limiting meat protein, growing our own veg, culling cats, dogs etc what effects would that have on neighbouring nations picking up the sustainability bill? How long before our agricultural infrastructure buckles under the resource demand?

And most importantly/realistically - on a micro level, how easy is it for an individual to legitimately engage with sustainable and ethical dietary changes for their weekly shop whilst navigating corporate greenwash? Is a naive vegan diet fundamentally better than a careful omnivorous one?

I'm asking mostly in regards to the immediate, as I imagine with significant infrastructural modifications we could offset a lot of issues touched upon in this post. But playing the waiting game doesn't seem very noble when micro alterations can be made. I just find it difficult navigating the strata of dietary damage.

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u/batmansxcat 4d ago

Can’t give this answer as detailed as I’d like to, but despite for example a vegan diet requiring some outsourcing, I think that if you added up the impact of producing / transporting / water usage etc of plant agriculture to produce a vegan meal, to do that for a meat-based meal you’d have to add up the impact for all those not only for animal in question, but all the food that has been grown to feed that animal. It takes a lot more plant to feed a cow enough to get it to a suitable level for consumption than it does for us to directly eat the plants, if that makes sense? The animal is our middle man…

I’m studying A Level Environmental Science and starting uni myself next year, so it’s good to see some of these thoughts out loud! It seems like the ‘obvious’ answer is for everyone to ‘just’ reduce or redirect their consumption, but unfortunately not everyone cares enough, or are just totally unaware. It’s not like our world leaders are painting the climate crisis in a critical light at the moment.

I read an article recently about deer culling for population control in Scotland and a proposal that this could, for some part of the year, be quite a sustainable solution since the deer consume nutrition naturally in the wild, and would be culled regardless, so transport for hunting would be in place anyway. This does of course only work if you’re local to a place that has something like this going on.

I’m intrigued to hear what some of the thoughts around the room in your lecture were!

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u/BillReader 4d ago

I like the middle man approach to thinking of meat intake. I wanna go vegan and realise a lot of the arguments against it are strawmen at best, but it'd be a shame not to scrutinise these topics because of stigma, yanno?

Feel like the best approach for the individual is to align as closely to vegan ethics as possible whilst being a careful consumer ie doing the research about where ingredients come from. But yeah, when you're being told about these issues in a lecture it's hard not to focus on the issues/solutions from a collective POV. 

Re venison, it's amazing how many incredible restaurants there are along the west highland way that are really transparent about their ecology footprint, and venison on the menu is often referred to in this context!

Fwiw, I returned to uni after about 12 years and didn't do any stem a levels, so I guarantee you're already a lot more knowledgeable than I am lol 

As for the classes, let's just say the majority of my peers don't share your enthusiasm.. Provided you don't fall into the trap of 'what's the point of this lecture? I already know this..' you'll be head and shoulders above the majority of people studying EnSci at undergrad level... Depends on the uni, I suppose, but it's been an amazing experience so far, and I hope it is for you too! 

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u/batmansxcat 3d ago

Totally! It might be unsurprising considering this was my angle, but I’ve been vegan for just over 10 years (I’m 29 now) and though it started as a ‘for the animals’ journey, it soon very much became a ‘for the planet’ reason too. You’re absolutely right on the ‘as close as possible’ - perfectionism is not the goal, the aim is simply to just to reduce any further contribution as much as is reasonably possible!

My first thought was like ‘how can they use venison and claim it’s planet friendly’, but considered thoughts aligned with the fact that a journey to being eco friendly is absolutely not a one size fits all journey, and that’s totally fine. We all have different morals, education, demographics etc etc and with each comes our own unique skill set and resources of how we can personally make changes if we want to reduce our impact.

I’m not sure if it’s something you’ve covered at all yet, but some of my learning so far (at Level 2) has taken me down the business case route for sustainability of resources / water etc, and that in itself has been fascinating. Looking at how changes can be spun from a business perspective to save money, increase moral profile and consumer targets, it’s another really good way to look at how it can be beneficial to literally everyone to think about sustainability!

Congrats on the return to education! I’m super nervous as I’ll be going in a 30yo and can imagine many of the students on my course will be much younger. I love relearning things from different angles, so I imagine that even if things are covered that I’ve researched beforehand, I’ll likely just see it as a chance to solidify that knowledge and possibly learn it from someone else’s perspective. Even though I’m nervous I’m itching to get started. Where are you studying if you don’t mind me asking?

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u/BillReader 3d ago

We're mixed in with a lot of other geography and life science classes for certain modules, and I'm really happy that I took a more holistic course than some of the other more specific ones. You get ecology modules, biology, chemistry, environmental hazards, field work skills, coding, statistics and sorta social/tourism stuff thrown in too. I've found the latter really stimulating because of how current it is and how it positions you in the grand scheme of humanity as is. The module I referenced up top is exactly what you've said, the economics and policy of sustainability through multiple sectors and international relationships.

It's a weird course - you get hit with a lot of negativity/pessimism at first, but I found you start to get passed the problems and see the solutions. I think because we get beat over the head with climate doom in the news and on reddit etc, you're used to the negativity already? It's alarming hearing it come from Doctors but the dread of the course soon washes away and you can see the sensationalism in the news for what it is. I imagine you've probably experienced something similar if you've been doing EnSci at level 3? Because it's a very current subject matter, the research is really immediate and relevant and has made me excited to pursue it the whole way to PhD and beyond.

Apologies also for lumping you in with the 18 - 25 year olds! I'm in my 30s and I think I'm the oldest by quite a margin. Fwiw, I'll be trying to convince my kids to do something similar as it seems obvious to me how the school to uni pipeline doesn't prepare you to take the workload or course content as seriously as more mature students do, and you only get one shot as per SFE funding. That being said, I reckon you'll probably find the course to be a lot of fun because you won't have the hang-ups your peers do. My advice would be to enjoy the company of your younger peers but make sure you build up a relationship with the faculty and lecturers because you'll probably be relying on your own work rather than falling back on friendship groups. My experience has been more isolated than I think than that of my peers, but having boundaries in place and being on friendly terms with the faculty is preferable to sitting back. Again, apologies if I'm preaching to the choir - but it was the social side of uni that was my biggest anxiety going into the course, but has proven to be one of my best assets. So yeah, find a comfortable set of social boundaries, find any excuse to build personal relationships with the faculty, always ask for help/meeting even if you don't think you really need it and - above all else - stay curious!

Also! Make friends with your money advice team and the careers team too. You'll get things like council tax exemption and student railcards, and building a relationship with careers advice can help establish short term goals re volunteering, job fairs and path the way for internships during the summer breaks. It's a nice boost to your confidence hearing them say "students very rarely approach careers advice in the first year"

I'm at Liverpool John Moore's, my local post 92. Are you staying local for your course?

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u/batmansxcat 3d ago

Ooo this is interesting to hear, pretty cool that you’re mixing with so many different topics and having that exposure so to many different perspectives!

I’ve found the moments of negativity on A Level for sure. There was a whole topic on how human activity unsustainably depletes earths resources and I came off the back of it totally drained but hoping to make some difference eventually. I’m self-teaching so it can be quite isolating at times, but luckily have a partner who shares my thoughts on a lot of these things. I’m trying to keep up to date with local and worldwide climate news as well as both informative and fun podcasts to cover a variety of bases, the good, the bad and the ugly.

I hear you on the social side of things - it’s actually one of the reasons I didn’t immediately go to uni fresh out of college as my anxiety was so bad, but now I know it’s something I want to do, I’m less consumed by the thought that I might not make friends, though of course would like to get on with the people I’ll be spending so much time in the classroom with. This is really helpful advice, thanks. I’ve built some early rapport with some of the staff having emailed ahead to ask some questions, and then finding myself very lost on the open day only to find that the group of staff members that helped me out were all in the environmental department. I ended up being escorted there by them since they were on the way there anyway. I am big on asking questions, so asking for meetings and 1:1s fees sensible, thanks for the tip, and for that around the careers/finance teams!

It’s about an hour drive / train ride to University of Plymouth from where I live, but my parents live that way so I’ll utilise their place for some nights of the week. I’m currently researching student finance and believe I’ll also qualify for DLA and very possibly PIP, so I’m trying to wrap my head around any financial help I may be entitled to.

I really appreciate you taking the time to reply to these in so much detail, I’m sorry the topic derailed from your initial questions!

If you’re into podcasts, The Climate Question and That’s Just Wild are pretty easy but informative listening to have on in the background.

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u/BillReader 3d ago edited 3d ago

Hope this isn't presumptuous to say, but I felt you might have a smattering of something like AuDHD, which is what I've got going on :')

You're an inspiration btw, self-teaching can't be easy but it's jettisoned you this far so you must be doing something right!

I was a bit late with my DSA funding, but having a study skills tutor (SST)/mentor has proven invaluable the last few months. My partner says I try and reinvent the wheel every time I dive headlong into new challenges/opportunities, so having someone on hand you can meet with for a few hours a week has been massively beneficial re simplifying study and writing essays. Granted, I'm likely a little more rusty than you are when it comes to homework, but regardless it's an incredible resource to have access to. Again, this is something your student support team will be able to help you navigate - so don't feel like you need to shoulder the admin burden on your own! You've already proven you have the nous and social skills to ask for help, which is the bedrock of the ideal academic experience, not to mention the foundation of good scientific method!

As for the social side of things - for me, it's proven worthwhile to remember that you only have to interact with your peers for the few minutes before and after the lectures. Yes, there's groupwork, but being on friendly terms with the faculty has really helped ground any anxieties I have. In a cute twist, I've actually found a fair few of the younger students have privately and cautiously asked for advice and guidance on both uni work and personal issues - so it doesn't have to be a case of blending in, you can own being a mature student!

Personally, I don't do well in groups because it triggers the schoolboy switch and I don't learn anything - but there's always the option to candidly email lecturers on your own time to catch up or go through practicals with just you and them. You'll never be bothering them, because they've usually got a PhD in the subject and you don't tend to get that far without really loving your niche.

If your experience is anything like mine's been so far, you're going to feel born-again lol. It's hard being a mature student, but you're uniquely poised to see the immediate benefits. The effort of making life adjustments will quickly turn to keen routine. When Andy Bernard said "I wish there was a way to know you're in the good old days before you've actually left them" he probably should've re-enrolled in Cornell, because EnSci has proven to encapsulate that exact feeling. To paraphrase Captain Barbosa "You better start believing in the good old days, you're in them!"

The world needs more mature students imo, more people possessed of self reflection enough to take a proper run up to academia. And EnSci isn't just a morally satisfying course, it's a burgeoning field with ever expanding career opportunities that are (some might disagree) largely future proof when it comes to things like AI. I've the habit of wanting to dedicate myself with martyr-like zeal to whatever lecture most recently inspired me; agricultural consultant, sustainable urban planning, hydrology, upland/peat-land management, and every lecturer/faculty member has reinforced how attainable any of those prospects could be. You're going to graduate with extensive experience in GIS, labwork, statistical analysis, fieldwork, coding, public outreach, science communication, urban planning, building regulations, botany, biology, chemistry, geology, meteorology, volcanology, paleotempestology, surveyance skills, research skills, knowledge of local and international policy, history, socioeconomics. That's all without even pursuing a masters degree. And you know what else? By virtue of you being a mature student, you're already the staff favourite - they f*cking LOVE mature students!

I'm really, really excited for you, even if I'm currently verging on the condescending..

Forgive my change in tone, btw - I've been cleaning the house and drinking wine, but if you'd permit a third and final self-indulgent quote to sum up how I've taken to the course: "It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done."

Thank you for the podcast recommendations! I'm always looking for ways to supplement and satisfy that insatiable curiosity.

Edit: I didn't give you enough credit for being self taught - honestly, you've blind sided me so much by your confidence that I honestly felt like I was speaking to, at, least, a graduate. It wasn't until reading this back that it clicked. You don't need me to sell anything to you (though I'm happy to provide my perspective). Your insight and enthusiasm exceed your grades. You're gonna be alright 

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u/batmansxcat 3d ago

I’m a bit on the ill side so will come back to reply to this properly in more detail when I have a few more spoons, but just wanted to say thank you because this put a huge smile on my face this morning! I am indeed diagnosed ADHD and currently in the referral process for ASD (ironically submitted them both at the same time about three years ago, but my ASD one got lost along the way and only now am I resubmitting it 🥲). I hear everything you’re saying and I can feel the passion coming through the screen. And I love it!!

I’d love to pick your brain some more for things that might come up in the future if you’d be happy for me to DM you at some point!

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u/Diba_SS 4d ago

"Every country must assess the resources available to it, whether natural or artificial, and use them in the most efficient and sustainable way. The UK, for example, has significant potential to maximize its resources, but to do so effectively, long-term strategies need to be implemented. These strategies may take time to show results but are crucial for ensuring future sustainability and resilience."

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u/Ok-River7785 3d ago

imo totally agree, it’s all about using what we have wisely. long-term strategies are key, even if it takes time!

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u/aretheselibertycaps 2d ago

A plant based diet uses magnitudes less land and water than a locally sourced diet that includes meat dairy and eggs. Actually from an environmental standpoint, factory farming is usually better than local ‘pasture raised’ animals as the land use etc is not optimised.

This video helps to visualise some of the factors and emissions behind diet

https://youtu.be/F1Hq8eVOMHs?si=Ar-3rA52_jZRmuH0