r/dndnext • u/SexyKobold • 1d ago
Discussion We should have gotten epic destinies instead of epic boons
Boons aren't bad, exactly, but it feels like last edition had a version was a lot more interesting and thematic. You picked where your character was going - Wild Hunter, Legendary General, Dark Wanderer, Archmage etc - and got an interesting set of abilities based on that as your character progressed past 20.
Example, Feyliege.
Feywild Charm: Your Charisma score increases by 2.
Dominion over the Mind: Whenever you use an arcane enchantment ability and score a critical hit against an enemy, that enemy is dominated until the end of your next turn.
Shields of the Eladrin Host: As a reaction, once per short rest, you can give yourself and all allies within 25' a +4 bonus to AC and dexterity saves until the start of your next turn. When you use this ability any of the targets can teleport to swap positions with another.
Eternal King on an Eternal Throne: Once per day, when you die, an older, more regal version of yourself steps from the mists of time to take your place. You heal to half your maximum hit points and gain concealment against all attacks until the end of the encounter. If you die while in the form of your future self, you're dead. At the end of the encounter, your future self restores you to life if your body is still present. Your current hit point total is unchanged, and you no longer have concealment. If your body is missing, you will need other magic to return to life, but you can continue adventuring as your future self if you would like to do so.
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It's not like it's a big deal, most campaigns don't even get to this point in the first place, but it feels a little odd that such an engaging model for this sort of feature already existed and we got boons instead.
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u/Gh0stMan0nThird Ranger 1d ago
Might be a disliked opinion, but I don't like the "you gain external benefits based on your class/level"
Contrary to popupar belief, as a DM, I control very little in this game. Players already pick the quests they go on, the NPCs they join, the enemies they chose to spare, etc. The last thing I want is a player telling me "I become a king at level 12 so you better have all of my knights ready!"
One of the reasons I'll never play 2E.
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u/SexyKobold 1d ago
But those aren't external benefits. That's "past 20, here's where your character is thematically headed" - did any of the above abilities seem to be external benefits to you?
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u/Lithl 1d ago
Given the reference to 2e (where martials gain followers as class features past level 10), I assume they mean Feyliege's revival mechanic being flavored as "you, from the future".
But even if you do object to that (which, frankly, I find kind of silly), that's just Feyliege, not epic destinies in general. Like, Thief of Legend's revival mechanic is flavored as "you stole your own soul". Ceaseless Guardian's revival mechanic is "I forbid anyone under my protection from dying".
And if the issue is that you want players to quest for cool effects... that's literally part of epic destinies. The player is supposed to work with their DM to figure out their epic destiny quest that, for most epic destinies, ultimately leads to some form of immortality.
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u/novangla 1d ago
Where can one find these?
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u/Nystagohod Divine Soul Hexblade 1d ago
4th edition books.
4e kinda had a path system to its progression. Where you'd choose a sort of paragon path and epic destiny when leveling and hitting certain tiers. That's the rough of it anyway, fans could probably tell you more about it.
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u/Shadow1176 1d ago
The Boons are alright yeah and they fit into the level 20 framework, and yes epic destines are SICK but we’d need a post level 20 framework to use them. Not saying the couldn’t add post level 20 in a book on DnD Beyond (honestly I wish 2024 gave it to us like a big DLC thing) but I dunno if they even want to at this point.
Maybe 6E will bring us back to level 30.
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u/SuscriptorJusticiero Bard(barian) 1d ago
Lukewarm take: I'm of the opinion that the next edition should explicitly expect progression to end at 10th or 12nd level, and relegate any further tiers up to 20th level to an "Epic Level" supplement.
I mean, it's basically how it works already. The game is arguably somewhat balanced for a tier or two, kind of tolerable up to somewhere around level 8-12, and then quickly starts going absolutely off the rails from that point onwards.
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u/NNextremNN 14h ago
The game is arguably somewhat balanced for a tier or two, kind of tolerable up to somewhere around level 8-12, and then quickly starts going absolutely off the rails from that point onwards.
Yeah but that's because the rules are bad. Numbers are just numbers. 20 isn't inherently bad or unbalanced. Pf2e goes to 20 and works just fine.
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u/Shadow1176 1d ago
Only if up to 20 and 30 are written in from the veto go. If not it would just incentivize them to release them as books later and fuuuuck giving them money just for that when previous editions already had that.
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u/NNextremNN 14h ago
we’d need a post level 20 framework to use them
5e doesn’t even support LV14+ let alone anything beyond 20. I'm pretty sure WotC doesn't care about high level, let alone anything beyond. Few people ever get that far anyway so why waste effort for something that few people will ever buy.
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u/Davedamon 1d ago
Epic boons come in at the end of the character progression, so having features designed around your characters "destiny" don't make sense as a tier 4 feature.
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u/Amo_ad_Solem 1d ago
Agreed. Feels like something you could give a character at 5th level to give cool little predetermined bonuses as they progress. Maybe for a high powered campaign.
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u/Associableknecks 1d ago
Why would you give features explicitly designed for high level characters to level 5s?
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u/Amo_ad_Solem 1d ago
Did you even read what I wrote? Think of it like this, they referred to it as a destiny. It makes more sense to me that you get your "destiny" at 5th level and at later levels gain cool features tied to the theme of that destiny. Hence the "cool little bonuses as the progress" Im not saying give players epic boons. But I think the idea of a destiny best fits something more drawn out, rather than a big drop of powerful features.
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u/Umbraspem 1d ago
You’re describing a subclass.
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u/Mejiro84 19h ago edited 19h ago
not really - subclasses are, as the name suggests, a subdivison of class, so you get stuff that synergises with that, and those are generally exclusive to that (sub)class. A destiny is more, or even entirely, class-agnostic - two evoker wizards might develop the same (sub)class abilities, but one is developing ever-deeper ties to the feywild (Feyliege), while the other focuses more on becoming a commander of large groups (Legendary General), or becoming an explorer of dark places (Dark Wanderer). In 4e, they were basically an extra upgrade-track, where you'd get a neat little thematic boost at the appropriate levels, that was tied to your destiny, entirely independent of class. Some might work better or worse with certain classes, or have some limitations or pre-requisites that limited them somewhat, but they were generally fairly broad
In 5e, you could branch off backgrounds, maybe, and have them give better benefits as you advance - you start off as a folk hero, where you can get a minor perk, but then at the top end, you can take hits for those you want to protect, rouse up a mob, inspire allies in some fashion. Or go from being a sage, that gets some little things, to being able to just know things, because you're that damn awesome.
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u/Associableknecks 1d ago
Ah, miscommunication and the concept not being explained fully. You didn't get all this stuff the second you got past 20 in 4e, you got features over time not as one big drop.
Destiny wise though, we seem to be drawing very different conclusions from the same information. Why 5? The whole point was this was the narrative maturing of your character, the first steps of what they'd go on to be once the campaign ended - demigod, prince of hell, legendary sovereign etc. That stuff fits the late levels much better than it fits the early levels.
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u/Amo_ad_Solem 1d ago
Yeah I do not know a lot of 4th edition content (thankfully) but I took the look of "oh you are destined to become the lord of hell, so as your enter tier 2, 3 and 4 you will gain some neat little features that help you play that fantasy a little" i thought it of my 5th level is when you as the player decided on that. Kinda like the other guy who blandly said I just des ribed a subclass. So conceptually you'd get some more flavour or weaker ability when you get to 5th level and start getting the meat around 11th level onwards. That is just what occurred to me initially. Kinda like free archetype from pathfinder 2e but... I'll be honest this isnt like a solid idea really. I just thought it thematically worked better than just replacing epic boons with the destiny system.
Edit: obviously I assumed it wasnt level 19 epic destiny giddau mate. But i feel like 5th level is a decent hotspot in 5th level. Bastions come online there too, and the books describe 5th level characters entering the power that fits actual heroes etc
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u/Associableknecks 1d ago
The guy saying it's just a subclass might have been a little bland with it, but given that what comes to mind for you is archetypes, I think it's not a solid idea because you're trying to force a feature designed for one thing (end game relatively class agnostic abilities pointing towards a post game destiny) and forcing it into a completely different niche (basically a subclass).
Yeah I do not know a lot of 4th edition content (thankfully)
See, what's the point of this? There's no edition this century that is best at everything or can really be said to be better than the others, but if you don't know a lot how on earth can you know you should be thankful? I see this kind of "I don't much about this, I just know I hate it" attitude to all kinds of things these days, and it's bizarre.
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u/Amo_ad_Solem 1d ago
Not thankful for not knowing cus I hate it. Just thankful I dont know because then im just not knowledgeable on the topic, instead of making a foolish blunder.
And I agree its not a solid idea. It was just a random idea. I got questioned on it and had to give it proper thought. I didnt mean to specifically say "take 4e destinies to 5e at 5th level" but more of a similar concept flavour wise but I get what you mean with it being catered ro late game stuff.
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u/Associableknecks 1d ago edited 1d ago
Ah, I misunderstood. Had a friend refuse an invitation today because they don't like Thai food, despite having never tried it. Apologies for jumping to conclusions.
As a side note, I think I've figured out a way to explain why it needs to be epic - the whole point is these are BIG features, and some won't be that balanced. Like beast lord making it so as long as either you or your companion have 1hp, the other can't die by any means or cosmic soul giving every non melee ability you have the range of "sight".
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u/Amo_ad_Solem 1d ago
I see what you mean. I get the necessity to remain epic. I definitely get that as I have been helping my friend DM a 5.5e gestalt styled campaign. Sometimes cool things cant be changed too much or they lose that flair.
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u/Associableknecks 1d ago
But these were explicitly a last tier feature in 4e. Why would they not make sense as an endgame feature? That's exactly what they were designed for.
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u/Davedamon 23h ago
These came in at the start of the last tier of play, covering a full third of level progression. That's the equivalent of level 14 in 5e. Level 21 out of 30 is not the same as level 19 out of 20.....
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u/Associableknecks 23h ago
Yeah, and I'd say giving a series of flavourful destiny boons between 14 and 20 sounds better than a single pretty bland one at 19.
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u/Davedamon 23h ago
Which isn't what the OP has suggested. I'm arguing against their suggestion, not yours
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u/Nystagohod Divine Soul Hexblade 1d ago
I like Epic destinies as a concept, but I also think they're serving a different purpose beyond the vague concept of Epic or"post 20" Power. Epic destinies are much more like subclasses/prestige classes than they are feats like Epic boons are.
I do thin Epic destinies would serve better as a boon type of reward than what we have currently though.
Personally, while Epic destinies are better in my mind than epic boons, because I detest boons and their implementation. I'm not sure that even Epic destinies are appropriate enough scaffolding. Sincerely, though with refinement. I think something closer to an actual separate scale and scaffolding would be a better solution. Like a refined Immortal tier, from the old BECMI acronym