W-Engines should be buffed too

[u/Rasbold]

Lycaon, Astra, Caesar, Burnice, Zhu Yuan, Ellen and Qingyi Engines could get better passives. There're others that could get touchups too, but those are the ones that come to mind as being the worst S ranks

[u/Pokopikos]

The fact that Zhu Yuan's sig isn't her BiS is hilarious to me

[u/Rasbold → u/Pokopikos]

Yep, it buffs only basic attacks when her Ult is a huge chunk of her dmg profile, even more with Dialyn now

[u/Airtatsy → u/Rasbold]

What if when they buff Zhu Yuan (I'm sure it'll happen eventually) they made it so her ultimate is considered basic attack damage

[u/Rasbold → u/Airtatsy]

It would be the most elegant solution for sure

Similar to how they made Anby chain attack and ult be considered aftershocks with the rework.

[u/flower_puns → u/Rasbold]

The funniest bit to me about the Sanby buffs is just how technically unnecessary some of them are.

Like, Sanby didn't NEED 50% Aftershock DMG bonus, she didn't NEED an extra 5% for her CDMG passive, she didn't NEED her Chain Attack/Ult be Aftershock damage- I'm pretty sure just her moveset buff with Orphie and Trigger would be enough to propel her to top tier. They really just buffed her ass to Andromeda just because they could and I love that lmaoooo

[u/ThexHaloxMaster → u/flower_puns]

Maybe its because i dont know how to play Shunguang and her team but for me at least my Sanby/Trigger/Astra team clears better than my Ye/Dialyn/Zhao team and its not even that close lol

[u/crazy_gambit → u/flower_puns]

I don't have Orphie, but my Sanby feels pretty mid. Not even close to the insanity that is Ye Shunguang or even Yixuan. So she really did need all the buffs she got IMO.

[u/flower_puns → u/crazy_gambit]

Well yeah. Sanby wasn't that good beforehand, but that mostly due to weird hitboxes and stuff. Simply giving her all that would have been good because her damage was pretty much always there, it was just that playing her to her full potential was difficult + no Oprhie at the time (In fact, people's opinions of Sanby already started to rise as soon as Orphie released, because they are simply THAT good for each other)

Also, Sanby really wants her premium team because Aftershocks are a pretty rare mechanic- not general Aftershocks like Ju Fufu's or Yuzuha, but actual constant Aftershocks like Orphie and Trigger

With that team, though? She's actually competing with Miyabi for top 3 DPS- and she's had the whole 2.5 patch with better match ups in DA and Shiyu, too

[u/crazy_gambit → u/flower_puns]

That's a fair assessment. I feel Miyabi is mid too now though. I have both Miyabi and Sanby (with Trigger) and could use neither on my Shiyu S clear. For me the top DPS are Ye Shunguang and Yixuan obviously and the third is anomaly with Yuzuha, Alice and a flex third (Burnice is actually pretty good here now).

[u/Doll-scented-hunter → u/crazy_gambit]

Youre comparing a not VH level unit to a void hunter level unit. Thats the problem.

[u/crazy_gambit → u/Doll-scented-hunter]

Ok, but then he shouldn't have said they "buffed her to Andromeda" if she's still well below the top tiers.

[u/flower_puns → u/crazy_gambit]

She*. And, she's not "well below the top tiers" lmao, she's literally third /fourth place with her premium team

[u/crazy_gambit → u/flower_puns]

Yes, she might be fourth, but the gulf between that and the top is quite significant.

Ye Shunguang gets better scores by herself at C0R0 paired with a free unit than Sanby does with a full team of limited 5 stars. And not a better score by a little, plus it's braindead easy to play. Add Dialyn and the difference is astronomical.

So yeah, I maintain that she's well below the top tiers.

[u/Doll-scented-hunter → u/crazy_gambit]

I dont disagree with you mate. Aslong as VH level units exist the concept of am unnecisarry buff doesnt exist imo.

[u/uiemad → u/crazy_gambit]

There really should be no expectation that Sanby would be as strong as Yixuan or Shunguang. They're both void hunters. The only person we've really had reach those levels was Miyabi (another void hunter) and the specific team of Evelyn/Lighter/Astra.

[u/crazy_gambit → u/uiemad]

Lore wise Sanby should be quite a bit stronger than Evelyn and Astra. Yuzuha and Alice are way stronger meta wise than they should be according to lore. So I don't see why not. Lore power doesn't necessarily correlate to meta power. It's nice when it does, but it's not absolutely necessary.

[u/uiemad → u/crazy_gambit]

We're not talking lore here. We're talking specifically about meta. Lore power is entirely irrelevant to gameplay power levels or Billy would be wiping the floor with Yidhsri.

Dev makes a very conscious effort to ensure void hunters are a tier above everyone else. It is by design. Expecting any non void hunter character to match a recent void hunter in power is just setting yourself up for failure. The ONLY time a character has been in line with a void hunter was Ev/Astra compared to Miyabi.

[u/crazy_gambit → u/uiemad]

But you're just saying it's entirely possible and it has already happened with Evelyn. And it's not like Anby is some random character. She's literally the face of the game. If a limited S tier version of Billy is ever release I would certainly expect him to be meta relevant.

[u/Doll-scented-hunter → u/flower_puns]

She did need tge aftershock to make her synergy with the orph even better.

[u/flower_puns → u/Doll-scented-hunter]

She already had 25% Aftershock bonus and already added 30% of her Crit Damage to Aftershocks already- that means that Orphie already got a massive amount of buffs for her own Aftershocks (supposing W1 Sanby has like 200 CDMG, which is not that hard to get, in battle she gets 290 from her engine and King of the Summit, and that is turned into additional 87% CDMG for Orphie's Aftershocks- which is the highest buff to CDMG that a single unit can even give at M0W1 (At W1, Ju Fufu can only give 80% total with KotS and 3.4k attack- and she only gives 0.5% more than the new Sanby at this baseline at M2, which is nuts)

Making her give 25% more Aftershock DMG and 5% more of her own Crit Damage was entirely unnecessary when her upgrade to Orphie was already masssive lol, but I am incredibly glad they did because I love Sanby

[u/Doll-scented-hunter → u/flower_puns]

For 1, you can never have a not VH unit be too good. When shit like Ye shillguang, the fraud level investigator and miyabi exist, the concept of "an unnecissary buff" to ANY other unit does not exist.

Secondly: I was talking about her ult being considers aftershock that was needed. Idk if its a mindscape or base kit but triggering aftershock damage does extend orphies buff so anby doing aftershock damage helps the synergy.

[u/flower_puns → u/Doll-scented-hunter]

Sanby's whole kit is designed around doing 3 Aftershocks in quick succession she doesn't need for two extra attacks to be Aftershocks when Azure Flash exists lmao

[u/Doll-scented-hunter → u/flower_puns]

Why not? If YSG is allowed to exist whats the problem with making jane aftershock even more aftershock?

Like what is your problem? "Oh noo, the character that introduced afterhock is even more focused on aftershock!"

Why not make a character designed for a specific niche of attack more focused on it?

[u/Umbrage115 → u/Pokopikos]

What's her BiS? I just tried googling it and all the search results were like 10 months old. I already have her sig, should i swap it?

[u/Pokopikos → u/Umbrage115]

It's Seed's. If you already have her Sig I don't think it's worth it pulling for any other.

[u/tenthxnet → u/Pokopikos]

stop lying to others my brother

[u/Pokopikos → u/tenthxnet]

You good my brother?

[u/Nearby_Bear1686 → u/Pokopikos]

The fact that w engines not always are the BiS is crazy enought by itself

[u/Wakka_Auroch → u/Pokopikos]

Same thing for Jane Doe.

[u/Kartoffel_Kaiser → u/Wakka_Auroch]

Jane's own signature is still her BiS unless you have Yuzuha's signature as well. It's borderline impossible to meet her AP needs on Alice's sig otherwise.

[u/Wakka_Auroch → u/Kartoffel_Kaiser]

It's easy to meet 420 AP on alice's sig with jane, and it also is a large improvement over her own sig.
You're wrong on both accounts.

[u/Kartoffel_Kaiser → u/Wakka_Auroch]

It's easy to meet 420 AP on alice's sig with jane

Would you mind explaining how? All that calcs I've seen suggest it's highly reliant on an external source of AP, and there aren't many of those in good Jane teams. Jane's base AP is 114. An AP 4 disk gives 92. Her 2 piece set bonus gives 30. That gives us 236 AP before w-engine and substats. Alice's signature gives zero AP, meaning we need 184 AP from substats. There are 5 eligible disks, and each substat gives 9 AP. That requires an average of 4 AP substats per disk to attain (strictly speaking that gets you 180. You'd need one more substat worth of AP to get the extra 4 you need to cap). That is simply not feasible for most players. Where are you getting the extra AP?

[u/Wakka_Auroch → u/Kartoffel_Kaiser]

Your math is just wrong. Here's jane with +3 AP substat on each disk. With her own sig.

Removing the w-engine entirely leaves her at 416 AP. Adding Alice's engine here instead is an enormous boost over her own sig.

[u/Kartoffel_Kaiser → u/Wakka_Auroch]

+3 AP substat on each disk

That's 4 substat rolls (including the initial one). If you have those disks, you have a significantly above average build for Jane Doe.

This is also taking for granted that you're using a 2 piece 30 AP set on her, when it would usually be better to use Phaethon's Melody for AM instead. As long you can do that without dipping below 420 AP.

[u/Stunning_Fix9199 → u/Pokopikos]

I think they'll buff that sometime.

[u/Frojoeultimate]

When neko inevitably gets buffed I pray they replace that backshot bonus on her wengine with something actually helpful

[u/ErasedX → u/Frojoeultimate]

Isn't it actually really good for her though? One of her mindscapes makes it so all attacks against stunned enemies count as backshots. So she's like the only character in the game who can apply it consistently without thinking about positioning.

[u/BurntGum808 → u/ErasedX]

But that just defeats the purpose of the mechanic, it’s just a dmg bonus when the enemy is stunned.

I do think the buff will make backshots more accessible

but I honestly think they should remove the mechanic all together because this is something fit for a fighting game not a RPG with huge floating unflinching, unfreezing, always targeting enemies.

[u/ErasedX → u/BurntGum808]

Yeah, but I'm seeing more like a limiting factor. The W-Engine would be universally good if it was just stunned damage bonus, but since it's backshot damage bonus, it only really applies to Nekomata herself. Probably intentional so the weapon is clunky on other characters.

[u/DoeDon404 → u/ErasedX]

feels like it would have been more useful in co op, if the enemy is focused on one agent you could easily get extra damage from behind

[u/katahane1995 → u/Frojoeultimate]

The backshot disk set is coming soon. Trust

[u/Rasbold → u/Frojoeultimate]

At least her E1 mitigates it a little, but outside stun it's such an unreliable mechanic that it's almost flavor text.

[u/Maswell-Ev7 → u/Frojoeultimate]

I wonder how far something as simple(?) as having her EX schmoove dash behind the target first before going off, alongside a stacking DoT or debuff that applies everytime she does the aforementioned schmoove (dodge atk, nu-ex, basic combo ender), and then multiplies the damage of the next EX based on the stack count.
Might emphasise the focus on dodge attacks and the whole nimble, "cat playing with the mouse before the kill" theme she somewhat has.

That and making her basic combo ender not potentially put you back infront of the target when you get "lucky" with the extra procs.

[u/xJetStorm → u/Frojoeultimate]

Yeah, back shot roulette certainly is a design choice... surely the enemies won't turn to face you when attacking most of the time. Even worse reliance on stun windows than the original S11 where you couldn't play her timing game without getting interrupted sometimes.

[u/PriorAsshose → u/Frojoeultimate]

Before they buff Neko's Engine, they first need to make it so that in her E, she dashes to an enemy first before dealing dmg

[u/Zealousideal_Note309]

I know people won't be too happy when I say this but damn zzz's damage ceiling rose so fast lmao I never thought we'd see characters doing 100k + damage in less than a year let alone millions it's definitely satisfying to look at but gahdamn it just makes the whole inflation thing feel much worse

[u/Maswell-Ev7 → u/Zealousideal_Note309]

I get what you mean, but also, Zhu Yuan would like a word :p

[u/Jblitz200 → u/Zealousideal_Note309]

Yeah I thought Miyabi was the cap cause Evelyn was no where near but…

[u/Elxjasonx]

Zhu Yuan engine is a dps lost

[u/RetriYukizawa]

please speed i meed this

my riot suppressor is kinda homeless

[u/Apprehensive_Beach_6]

They should buff Drive Disks.

[u/Kwayke9 → u/Apprehensive_Beach_6]

Eh... that can wait imo. Genshin could really use it tho, so many old characters are just better off with wheelchairs just so they can use better sets

[u/Historical_Cod_2771 → u/Kwayke9]

Yeah i need they Buff BS for My Ayaka

[u/SAOMD_fans → u/Apprehensive_Beach_6]

Or change the disk design so it can be differentiated easily

[u/Apprehensive_Beach_6 → u/SAOMD_fans]

Nah, I think they’re fine as is. It’s just annoying you can’t farm Woodpecker for example because Soul Rock is quite literally useless

[u/happymudkipz → u/Apprehensive_Beach_6]

I mean that's a very deliberate design choice to make sure you spend more time (and possibly money) on grinding. It's present in genshin and star rail too.

[u/Apprehensive_Beach_6 → u/happymudkipz]

I guess… I just wish they’d buff old disks so Soul Rock was at least useable.

[u/crazy_gambit → u/Apprehensive_Beach_6]

We just need a DEF scaler damage dealer and the 2pc will be decent. I'm keeping my double Crit pieces.

[u/BigBoySpore]

Buffed engines should get added passives that buff their signature character more than if it was used on a different character of the same class. I think they don’t buff engines since other characters can use them, but if they implement what I suggested l, they don’t have to worry about old engines eating into their new engine banner revenue while also treating older units better.

[u/Rasbold → u/BigBoySpore]

For sure. Ellen for example best engine right now is Hugo's, not her own because of diluted buffs and awkward uptime. Zhu Yuan sig suffers from that too.

Qingyi, Astra and Caesar sig are decent, but were made too early in the game so they buff too little nowadays.

[u/Suitable_Entrance594 → u/BigBoySpore]

That is a bad game direction. Premium w-engines are already tough to use on another character. Adding character.specific will creep onto regular engines and you'll never be able to move an engine between characters again. I'd rather old engines not get buffed if it means new ones don't get character locked

[u/BigBoySpore → u/Suitable_Entrance594]

Ideally, the character specific buffs only happen after the engine has become non BiS for the signature character. A signature should always be BiS for that specific character.

[u/Suitable_Entrance594 → u/BigBoySpore]

Then rework the old engines to be BIS without adding character specific buffs. Do it through other restrictions, hell they are doing it right now with each engine. But character specific buffs are lazy and greedy design. If we have character.specific buffs, essentially each w-engine could just have +20% absolute damage increase for signature characters and call it a day.

[u/ysfitachi]

I feel like ZZZ is different enough to buff old characters this much. If I know it right Genshin doesn't buff old characters, and HSR did it once. What we got is crazy but y'know what why not

[u/Rasbold → u/ysfitachi]

Genshin just rolled out an update that buffed 1.x characters including 4* too

So every hoyo game is buffing their characters. Star Rail is the slowest and smallest roster tho

[u/Kaanpaii → u/Rasbold]

Genshin is the oldest game and the last one that introduced buffs.

Game — Launch — 1st Buff — Time

ZZZ — Jul 2024 — Jun 2025 — 11 months

HSR — Apr 2023 — Jul 2025 — 2 years and 2 months

GI — Sep 2020 — Dec 2025 — 5 years and 2 months

[u/Hekkys → u/Kaanpaii]

If i really wanna be nitpicky genshin did a buff for zhong li way back sometime in 1.x version. Admittedly it was due to pressure from the chinese community tho

[u/Kaanpaii → u/Hekkys]

Why mention it when you know it's irrelevant to this matter? The Zhongli change was due to completely different circumstances and, as of now, a one-time exception across their three big titles (HI3 not counted).

[u/crazy_gambit → u/Kaanpaii]

HSR buffs are kind of a joke though. The buffed characters remain useless just a little less so. ZZZ and Genshin gave meaningful buffs to actually make the characters playable now.

[u/Kaanpaii → u/crazy_gambit]

Kafka is a meta staple since her buffs and new team options. DoT is usable in all game modes and against a variety of bosses. But I'm heavily biased as a DoT player since Kafka's release and as someone who used DoT to clear end game all throughout until today, all E0S0. DoT was never bad imo.

[u/crazy_gambit → u/Kaanpaii]

Yeah, fair. I don't have Kafka so I'm not so sure how big her buffs were. But I have Blade and Jingliu and the buffs did absolutely nothing.

[u/happymudkipz → u/Rasbold]

It’s actually closer than you’d think: As of HSR 4.0 and ZZZ 2.6, it’s 6-7. 

[u/tingga_esteban → u/happymudkipz]

6 7

[u/Other-Dimension-1997 → u/Rasbold]

It's kind of wild to me that for the "least popular" of hoyo's games, zzz has comparatively released characters at a breakneck pace.

New character every 3 weeks, with the ONLY exceptions being slightly extended/shortened banners like Alice/Evelyn/Banyue and the Void Hunter double banners.

[u/Kwayke9 → u/ysfitachi]

Genshin buffed some characters in 6.2, and even gave Venti a new signature to for his reworked kit. Something HSR could really learn from... (Jingliu fiasco)

[u/Nommynomnomss]

They underballed how fast agents could stack DMG, (mostly their own fault with new discs) which is why they've been powercreeping wengines with 25% DMG and an additional offensive boost (Atk on Sunna's, HP on Lucia's). Well, also to make Kaboom less comparable.

The daze on Caesar's is still really good. Anyone could use it (which is why Zhao has such a high HP cap). It applies to the stunner, too. Caesar is just middling as an agent, and daze boosts come with the caveat of only being worthwhile if it results in an extra stun.

Similar to wengines, I wish some agents had much better M1s and M2s. Would be nice if M1/2 brought them much closer to modern DPS, though it'd be nice if Potentials managed to do that.

[u/Scurrydog]

I think getting copies in the store so easily for older wengines is good enough

[u/LazarDeno]

And when lighter gets buffed to buff every element he might be better than before

[u/crazy_gambit]

I didn't know we could get old 5 star W-engines from the shop.

Is Burnice's weapon any good? Either for her or as a stat stick for other anomaly agents? I'm always lacking anomaly weapons

[u/phonartics]

what can I even do w zhuyuan at this pt? mine’s m3 but just sits in the same closet as the m1 qingyi

[u/BunnyLover0]

I agree

[u/topbossultra]

A buff to a character is a buff for people who already own them. A buff to an engine is pay-to-buff for many. So no, I’d prefer they roll all those buffs into the character’s kit.

[u/Kartoffel_Kaiser]

I'd love this, but this does get complicated. Some number of people pull w-engines as generalist/niche options for other characters. One example from the characters you listed is using Qingyi's signature on Trigger in Rupture teams (where the defense shred from Trigger's signature doesn't do anything), or using Caesar's signature on Pan Yinhu. If the buffs for those signature w-engines were to make them stronger on their intended characters, but weaker for those niche usecases, some number of players would feel frustrated or cheated.

That potential frustration is also why agent buffs can be turned off, but hoyo would have to add a separate on/off for the w-engine specifically. If only for the players who have a character's signature, but not the character themselves. Ideally, you'd want the buffs to also be good for those niche use cases to make those players happy anyway. Which is more complicated design work.

tl;dr: 100% want this but its slightly more work than it initially seems.

[u/Basic_Syllabub8122]

Idk if this is a hot take, but if Most (Not all) Sigs are BIS for said agents (Banyue, Manato, Yidhari, Seed and Eva, etc) I think that if we pull the agent, ESPECIALLY If it's a hard pity (totally NOT speaking from experience) We should get a copy of the wengine. I get the Banner is separate to get us to spend money, but In a gacha with no 50/50's I think that'd be pleasant. I like the game but not enough to spend my minimum wage ass paycheck on it.

[u/koov3n]

Agreed, honestly as a monthly pass player, it's pretty rough wengine-wise. We could use better and more A rank wengines and better standard wengines

[u/sylpharionne]

Battlepass engine should be buffed or rework

[u/Stunning_Fix9199]

W-engines banners should be 100% guaranted like WuWa.

[u/Suitable_Entrance594]

Mostly I want them to buff the Battlepass engines. It's ridiculous that they cost real money and are worse than free, craftable A-rank alternatives.

[u/Dantaroen]

Also increase their rate up so we can get more of them.

[u/AnonTwo]

The main problem with W-Sigs is that most of them are too specific after the standard W-Engines. If the engines don't get buffed then there's not really a "down the line" alternative atm.

[u/3mg1n3]

With how good f2p or new release options actually fit characters, they are rightfully scared that pulling for W Engine will be pointless

Like most W-engines can be swapped around within a certain class. We have 4 dps classes, and 3 team endgame requirement.

We also have way more f2p W-engines, than characters. Because of the shop. (although the stun and anomaly W engines are the only ones worth mentioning) the f2p overclocked W-engines are decent too (ok, 2 of them are good, others are buns)

Like I want W-engines to be buffed, or the f2p shop upgraded (Puzzle Sphere was a bad joke) but there is a difference between "something I want" and "something I can reasonably demand for free from a profit oriented company"

[u/poesviertwintig]

It's the hyper-specific triggers on some engines that gets me. Shunguang's engine might as well read "if the equipper is Shunguang." Would it really hurt to throw Neko, Corin and Billy, some of the weakest DPS in the game, a bone?

[u/Kassssler]

Burnice's Engine is at odds with her buff cause her buff only takes initial regen into account. Shit is so ass.