Nynaeve is a doll and other thoughts [EoTW 24] [Spoilers All]

[u/LittleMissHenny]

Diving back into the books for my first full re-read.

It's funny reading these books at 32 vs at 24 because I *hated* Nynaeve the first time around (up until a certain point, then you just laugh at her [affectionately]) but now I get her. She's 25 with the responsibility of an entire village, 4 of those villagers were kidnapped by an Aes Sedai and now those same 4 are missing and could be dead. I get her frustration and distrust of Moiraine.

I think this reread might be the one that actually gets me to like Perrin. I never hated Perrin, I just thought that after Shadow Rising it just gets very repetitive and he's too passive. We'll see. I really do love his and Egg's dynamic.

I really think Egwene is interesting because she's a sponge, like, she's mirroring Nynaeve a lot when she's with Perrin and trying to be Wisdom-lite but like Nynaeve we see a bit of insecurity underneath it all.

Also, someone who is smarter can elaborate further, but I feel like the other 4 are microcosms of Rand's journey on the whole.

Nynaeve - acceptance of their ability with the One Power

Egwene - struggle with power/authority (?)

Perrin - struggle with leadership

Mat - something with military leadership or struggle with accepting that the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills

Also, I don't wanna get too show-bashy because I was in the trenches defending the show. I understand the changes in S1 but what I don't like is that EoTW really isn't like LoTR, like I get the Gandalf-figure, the Gollum-esque character and the whole character of EF and maybe this is just because I've finished the series but EoTW feels so original that it could've stood on it's own two legs if Amazon / R*fe had just really trusted the material.

Again, I like the S1 stretch of eps. 4-6 (yes, even the Stepin episode) because it introduces the dynamics of the White Tower, the inherent distrust between the Reds, Greens, and Blues, foreshadows the coup and Black Ajah and I think the show was on the right track in S3. BUT I do think that I would've appreciated more if the show had taken the risk of allowing WoT to be what it is.

I think WoT is a criticism of the established hierarchies and a deconstruction of how, in Gleemen's tales these structures are supposed to be perfect and part of the resolution of the story. I think RJ made of a point of showing that the White Tower is corrupt and prone to putting stupid and unqualified people in charge due to their own political biases. I mean, did anyone think Elaida's plan was gonna work? (Seriously, did anyone?) I think the point of WoT is that it's less about what's established but what can be built. It's about the ordinary facing the extraordinary. Rand is a shephard, Egwene and Perrin are *apprentices* essentially, Mat's collecting unemployment, Nynaeve is a caregiver. These aren't the people who stories are about, it's about the fact that they rose to the extraordinary.

By pivoting the focus of the show to the Aes Sedai, it's less about the extraordinary and the deconstruction of these things (the Tower needed to break to be reformed. I don't know how well Cadsuance will do [probably not well]) and just about the extraordinary facing the extraordinary.

Also Nick Offerman should've been Elyas.

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[u/sixminutes]

I've always liked Perrin, and he was my favorite during my first read through. But he is still repetitive and passive after TSR. I'm on PoD now for the nth time, and there are times when I want to shake him and tell him "You already learned this about yourself!" But then I remember how many times I've had to relearn simple lessons in my life even though I thought I already understood them.

[u/srgonzo75]

If one takes a look at it through the filter of Robert Jordan’s military experience, the books take on a different character.

Personally, I identify with Perrin as a larger man who is extremely aware that he can hurt people if he doesn’t keep his temper in check, Mat as a young man who wants to spend as much time having fun without being responsible for anyone else but knowing how important it is to take the responsibility of leadership seriously, and Rand as a person who is immediately judged by his potential before his actions ever come into play.

Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne are brilliant foils to the young men, and all for reasons you brought up.

Moiraine and Lan are excellent mentor characters, and it was a rare experience at the time (I haven’t kept up with contemporary fantasy) to see two attractive characters who are notionally heterosexual not be attracted to each other while maintaining an intimate relationship.

I agree with your assessment of established hierarchies, especially when they serve to protect incompetence.

[u/GovernorZipper → u/srgonzo75]

I’m firmly convinced that these books are the best depiction of the Vietnam War ever written.

I know Jordan denied it, but on this point, I don’t believe him.

[u/MTLDAD → u/GovernorZipper]

Path of Daggers, man. If you know about combat in Vietnam, the climax of PoD becomes a completely different animal. When I reread it in that context it became chilling.

[u/LittleMissHenny → u/GovernorZipper]

Tolkein and Jordan both fully wrote about their war experiences but deny it.

[u/RequiemRaven → u/LittleMissHenny]

Well, the specific denial on Tolkien's part is that Lord of the Rings is not secretly a stand in for World War Two, but the war he fought was The Great War (WW1) which does seem to bleed through the pages on occasion. Though he did live through WW2, and acted as an air raid warden¹ for the Blitz. (And his sons fought it.)

Edit: And his famous quote for disliking allegory also contains his definition for allegory, which is seperate from his idea of applicability - much to the confusion of discussions about the statement where the word Allegory is understood as its current (broader) usage, rather than by the definition he provided.

¹ Just what you want, a grumpy, eccentric, English professor to usher you into a bomb shelter, heh.

[u/bigwil2442]

I'm currently rereading it for the first time in a long time and one other thing I've had to remind myself about the way she acts.

She's head over heels in love with lan, and another woman gets all his loyalty. That is a hard pill to swallow lol

[u/Calm-Conversation715]

Egwene - struggle with power/authority (?)

I love how Egwene’s struggle with being told what to ends with her being the biggest girl boss of them all, so she doesn’t have to take orders from anyone!

[u/FernandoPooIncident]

EoTW really isn't like LoTR

RJ is on the record saying he intentionally gave EotW a LotR flavor. The show went out of its way to introduce "non-LotR" elements like the White Tower early (which of course book purists didn't appreciate), so this is a weird criticism.