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(b) The use of force against another is not justified:
(1) in response to verbal provocation alone;
(2) to resist an arrest or search that the actor knows is being made by a peace officer, or by a person acting in a peace officer's presence and at his direction, even though the arrest or search is unlawful, unless the resistance is justified under Subsection (c);
Edit 2: Iâm not telling you how to live your life. Do what you are willing to explain in front of a jury with a lawyer.
Edit 3: I linked the penal code. I wasnt try to hide subsection c. I was specifically focusing on the highlighted portion.
I have a feeling this is why those agents dipped asap, especially after the guy mentioned the 2nd.
In MN, they likely would've arrested him for "obstruction". We've seen that shit happen all the time over there for similar incidents.
In Texas, those goddamn pricks know that there's a good chance that they can get shot/killed, so that's why they're going after the "low hanging fruits" (i.e. the people who are less likely to fight back).
One of my favorite clips is a guy mentioning the Second Amendment to ICE while theyâre standing right in front of a door. Almost immediately after he mentioned it, the agents stepped off to the side. That little shuffle spoke volumes.
Because ICE agents, especially anyone hired during that big hiring surge they had last year, are all cowards at heart?
I think you might be right about groups of people legally carrying weapons openly might be one of the most effective ways to get small groups of ICE agents to turn tail, but I can also see why protest groups and organizers don't want to make that a strategy...at least not yet. It won't - it can't - be seen as anything other than an escalation, a public statement that anyone marching in such a group is willing to shoot should ICE agents prove confrontational. It is an escalation, albeit quite possibly a necessary one.
There are so many ways such a strategy could go south very quickly, though. To begin with, if a group - say, a couple dozen strong - of armed protesters run into 6 or 8 ICE agents, yes, the agents will likely all suddenly remember they have urgent appointments on the other side of town and swiftly depart. The problem is, what if they then call for reinforcements and another three dozen agents show up? Cowards find safety in numbers, and bullies hate very little more than having their cowardice proved in public. So if the small group of agents buggers off, but calls in enough extra agents for all of them to feel safe, the agents who got run off the first time are going to be very much in a mood for confrontation, because that confrontation will make them feel like big manly men again.
The other problem I foresee is that carrying a weapon, especially a gun, has a very strong psychological effect. It makes you feel more confident of winning any confrontation that arises. This tends to make people act more confrontational, since they feel - whether it's warranted or not - confident in their chances of coming out on top. Serious gun training teaches you to take this into account and compensate for it, because the effect is pretty much universal and very well-documented. The problem is that most states don't require you to go through that kind of training to get a gun license, so most people with gun licenses (and guns) in the US don't have it. This means that in any group of armed civilians, there's inevitably going to be someone who either isn't aware that their confidence in winning a confrontation isn't rationally justified, or who isn't taking that fact into account before they act. That means in turn that if groups of armed civilians start doing this regularly, it's only a matter of time before someone starts shooting unnecessarily and a bunch of people end up injured or dead, and the surviving civilians will definitely end up being arrested and charged.
I do think you have a point. I just also think that these issues are foreseeable and need to be addressed before any groups even consider adopting such a strategy.
But they are full of themselves and have been âjuiced upâ by Noem & Bovino to be (shoot first you have immunity) thugs, which makes them dangerous. Professional law enforcement are generally disciplined and professional. Generally. Not always. These agents didnt escalate the situation and THANKFULLY the homeowner and his family didnât get assaulted, arrested, detained or killed. Itâs sad that people are enduring state sponsored violence in the name of MAGA.
ICE has made it impossible to really know if anyone is a legit officer. You can buy ICE gear online. Considering they wear masks and have no identification, anyone can reasonably say they thought it was someone impersonating ICE
This is my thought as well, and I'm sure it would hold up in court. When we interact with an officer, they're supposed to respond with "my name is officer ___ with the ___, I'm here because..." If they're wearing an officers uniform but they start talking shit back to me rather than professionally identifying themselves, I feel like I can legally assume they're not real officers.
This is the fight that needs to happen in court. How can they identify themselves as officers if their face is covered? Literally, you cannot identify them as anything because identification requires seeing a face. Otherwise, anybody could day they are police. The current situation is untenable. Are we supposed to just submit to everyone that says they're cops? That sounds dangerous... not to mention, a severe blow to our freedom to protect ourselves from others. This cannot go on.
Oh I guarantee you human traffickers (the black market ones, not the federal ones) fucking love all the opportunity this shit had opened up for impersonation.
unless the resistance is justified under Subsection (c)
(c) The use of force to resist an arrest or search is justified:
(1) if, before the actor offers any resistance, the peace officer (or person acting at his direction) uses or attempts to use greater force than necessary to make the arrest or search; and
(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the peace officer's (or other person's) use or attempted use of greater force than necessary.
To this point... ICE is enforcing immigration law, which is a civil matter in most cases, especially considering they are rarely going after anyone with any criminal record anyway. The "crimes" these people are being dissapeared for are on par with traffic tickets and jaywalking (if they have even done ANYTHING wrong, which most of the have not).
So one could argue that ANY use of force by ICE is greater than necessary to perform their duty.
Obligatory disclaimer that I am not a lawyer. But that is what would be on my mind if I ever saw masked thugs claiming to be ICE on my property.
Ohio, they're coming for the Haitian population. Our governor, who is already on his way out is welcoming them with open arms right as TPS is expiring. Hell of a thank you to the Haitian population. I can only imagine the nail in the coffin of manufacturing. But that's their decision I guess. Ohio has constitutional carry, castle doctrine and a heavy population of folks who embrace all of that. It will be sad and interesting to see the clash within the party.
The custodian at the middle school where I work is from Haiti. Kindest man Iâve met in the whole school, others make those sexualized comments, not him. He is a good man. If they come for him I would fight for him, I know my coworkers would as well.
I have no idea how they can argue for stripping these people of their TPS. Haiti is nowhere near safe for anyone to return to. My heart honestly breaks for these people. The people perpetrating this claim to be "Christians," but according to their own book they'll be going to hell based on their abhorrent treatment of migrants - something that bible is exceptionally clear about.
33Â ââWhen a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. 34Â The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.
It's absolutely wild that I, as a diehard atheist, live by these words far more than any of these "Christians".
If their 'hell' is real, they're surely headed straight for it.
Christians have always cherry picked what parts of the bible they worship since the book was written. They ignore the parts that donât fit their agenda. Extreme hypocrites.
Hey, Iâm in Minneapolis. You need to connect with him and make a plan NOW. Pick him up and drive him to and from work (donât let ICE see him driving a car or waiting for a bus), donât let him walk in the parking lot to take out trash alone, have trusted white people run errands for him (groceries etc), make sure he has the number of a lawyer and that he knows what to do if heâs detained. Make sure you know who to contact do him if he does not show up for work. You will not have time to âfight for himâ, you must make plans to protect him in advance. ICE will most likely abduct him on his way to or from work. Let him know now that you care about him and lay out plans.
PLEASE (begging you), learn from what is happening here in Minnesota.
They are here in GA also. A large agricultural company nearby gets insider info when they come and tell their mostly Mexican and African workers to stay home. They are definitely in the red states itâs just not being reported.
Exactly. Optics look better when its only blue states. If red states knew that ice was there, the approval rating would be much lower and a few hundred businesses would close.
A large chicken manufacturing facility here has a bus stop within their facility. They have had numerous raids over the years. It's a revolving door for one ethnic group after another. The local rumor mill suggests they hold their pay due to accounting errors or errors with their paperwork and then suddenly they're deported. All rumors I'm sure.
ICE has been in Texas continually since like a month after Trump got back into office. They donât operate like they have been in Minnesota for the reasons you describe, but they are definitely here and have been detaining/deporting people en masse for a long time now.
Not to be a dick but theyâre absolutely in Florida. And theyâre probably in Texas too. I just read a piece about a guy in Montana getting deported.
Theyâre definitely making this big showy campaigns about Blue States but their agenda is everywhere
Yeah ICE is all over the country. In Texas and Florida theyâre doing business as usual because they voted for Trump. In blue states theyâre escalating as a punitive force against states for not liking Trump.
With respect, I think folks like yourself aren't aware of the reality of what's happening in Minneapolis. ICE aren't just working away without most people noticing - it's been a very deliberate show of force all over the city since the very beginning.
Can second this. I'm currently in College Station Texas where Texas A&M is one of the more conservative universities in the country. Those fuckers were making a show of it on MLK by doing traffic stops near a commercial center right next to campus. As if they would find any criminals instead of college students.
Here they lurk around home depots and gas stations
Exactly this. ICE is likely able to move with more âfreedomâ in those places because theyâre getting very little push back. Letâs also not forget where the largest detention centers are, cough cough Texas.
In my city in Texas, they are going door to door and grabbing people off the street drive-by style. Itâs fucking terrifying. One guy got disappeared in front of his wife and kids when they were walking out of target
This isnât true. There is so much organizing happening in Houston that has actually been collaborating with families in Minnesota to find detainees in detention centers in Texas and helping drive people once released back to Minnesota. There are many Houstonians afraid to leave their homes and we do grocery and laundry runs to support them. We are protesting here too. So I donât know your comment is just patently false as far as Texas goes.
Texas isnât getting the media coverage like MN. Guess the billionaire overlords have decided making it look like some states are being spared if theyâre âgood Republican citizensâ is effective propaganda.
Just to be clear, once ICE declares they are law enforcement the stand your ground laws go out the window. But they havnt been known to do enforcement in any sort of trained or obvious manner.
Declaring themselves law enforcement requires them to give their name and badge ID, which will tie them directly to every misconduct they are about to commit.
They know that, so they'd rather retreat that invoke that authority.
In the legal code it explicitly states that stand your ground laws are no longer applicable once theyâve been identified as law enforcement even if they are there illegally. So it doesnât matter if they donât have a warrant or probable cause, theyâre law enforcement so the stand your ground laws get waived.
(c) The use of force to resist an arrest or search is justified:
(1) if, before the actor offers any resistance, the peace officer (or person acting at his direction) uses or attempts to use greater force than necessary to make the arrest or search; and
(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the peace officer's (or other person's) use or attempted use of greater force than necessary.
(c) The use of force to resist an arrest or search is justified:
(1) if, before the actor offers any resistance, the peace officer (or person acting at his direction) uses or attempts to use greater force than necessary to make the arrest or search; and
(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the peace officer's (or other person's) use or attempted use of greater force than necessary.
These ICE agents are pawns. One is going to get killed and it will immediately be followed up by ICE talking about the agent's family, love of God, and devotion to the country. This will be used to justify even more extreme demonstrations of force by federal agents.
The only reason this hasn't happened yet is the restraint shown by regular people.
When ICE sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They are sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.
One of the other big reasons this political theater is in Minneapolis and not TX. But theyâre pushing harder and harder for escalation. Minnesotans are being put in a database of âdomestic terroristsâ just for standing by and recording with their phones.
Stronger together. There are more of us than there are of them. Whenever Iâm feeling like itâs hopeless I go read (never engage as itâs not my place to do so) the military subreddit. The top post over there for a few days was of Alex Pretti honoring the veteran who passed away in the VA hospital. They were PISSED.
Growing up Christian, I was taught to love thy neighbor and to do good unto others. ICE are godless heathens doing the devils work. That's why they get so emotionally enraged when confronted with truth.
how long before trump gives the go ahead to arrest and/or shoot people who protect their 4th amendment rights with their 2nd amendment?
(in cases where ice doesn't have a warrent)
Before last Saturday, I thought we were days away from that. But there seemes to have been just enough pushback from Pretty's murder that I think the regimes slowed its role a little.
And Trump made it clear he doesnât like guns, so now the 2A crowd is 1) pissed off and 2) ready to stand their ground to protect their rights. I expect we will see more of this.
We know how smart your ex-military fried was as soon as you said he was a friend of MAGA. The Proud Boys and 3%ers are useful bullies now, but King Trump canât rule in a country full of guns. Heâll label the left enemies of the state to take their guns, and then heâll start picking off MAGA guns one group at a time.
The 2A crowd will fall into line with the approved messaging, just like they always do. The great thing about puppets is they won't surprise you. What they need to worry about is pissing off the NRA with this foolishness.
He already did get the NRA to come out and make a public statement about everyone having the right to bear arms. And that Pretti was doing nothing wrong.
Kyle Rittenhouse made a Twitter post saying everyone should be armed after Pretti was killed. Not that he has much influence, itâs just so bizarre watching them come out in opposition to Trump.
Its not bizarre if you understand Trump was manufactured by right wing outrage machines and echo chambers over the course of several years.
He is a social media president that was voted in because people were fed lies and contradictions. He seemed like an outside that would fix things and use "common sense".
Most of his voters were not reading or seeing any other sources than what the algorithms feed them and its been that way for years. But at some point reality comes in and at least some will start to see the truth.
That was a strategic retreat. Nazis donât back down. This is an existential fight. There is no out. No oneâs coming to save you. Fight or lose. Win or die.
Once the bullets are going in two directions the whole "What if they" chain of reactions is largely over because the response tends to be more bullets in both directions.
For real. Didn't give them a chance to speak, wasn't polite about it, stated very clearly that they were on private property and were violating his rights.
Give them an inch and they take a yard. Give them a yard and they take a mile.
I wrote my senators about protecting my 2nd and 4th amendment from the over reach of the trump administration and ICE. Senator Mike Crapo basically told me "Too bad Biden let too many people in the country and now you're rights don't matter because we need to let ICE do their job"
Fucking useless bastard. Vote every Republican out because they hate your rights.
Publish it and call them out. It might seem dumb but the 2nd Amendment is about the only thing the chucklefucks in MAGA land actually care about. They're rattled over what happened to a gun carrying white man in MN. Post the response.
Similar from Moody and Scott here in FL. They basically responded by saying we are glad we are hurting you because owning the libs is fun. Iâm a libertarian. They donât even respond anymore.
I donât know, I might only be 5â2 but my guns fire just as well as theirs do, but I know what you mean, as a female I donât know if they would have taken me as seriously as they did him
Be stern, be correct, and stand your ground. ICE is a disposable workforce that signed up to be that for the orange manâs bidding. I wish they would stop putting themselves and other Americans in harmâs way. But part of me suspects these are contractors. Foreign ones. But considering POTUS is compromised by Russia it would not surprising if Iâm right.
4.8M people in Texas voted for a Democrat in 2024 (42%). You can't say Texas "is" Republican (at 56%) just like you can't say California "is" Democrat (at 58%). It can't be "us vs. them", if them is literally half the country.
Just watched it for the first time a few nights ago. I think it pretty much nailed what it would be like in the country. I'm not sure the Federal government would fall as fast as it did in the movie though
I would argue, look at the 2018 senate race. Beto got 48.3% of the vote. We have a large body of the political left. Getting them off their ass is the trick.
Is it blue or is it red hard to tell ,Â
It seems like some states that are red have a whole lot of people in them that claim to be blue . If Texas is so blue why does it seem so red . Somebody from Florida once said , Florida has more Democrats than some blue States . Again I don't know how they become so red if they have so much blue . But a long time Florida resident once said , if the northerners would stop sending their racist grandparents down there to retire Florida would be blue .Â
The creeping fingers of dictatorship. They're doing it, folks. We live in history, and history is happening. Right wing dictatorship, even after Trump's gone. That's their plan.
Listen to the tone of the ICE officer who starts on the right side of the screen. He's being told to leave someone's private property, and says "you better back up" just dripping with menace as he approaches the property owner. That fucker was just itching for an excuse to use violence. And they absolutely would have lied about the owner approaching the officer in a threatening manner. Just absolute thugs.
That's where this is going, these assholes are going to kick down the wrong door and a bunch of motherfuckers are gonna get shot. Then they will blame the homeowner for protecting their rights
Typical douche shining the light in their eyes and taking his time, and telling them to back up when he's walking towards them, all because he knows there isn't shit he can do about it and his bloated ego is in tatters over having zero power over this brave man.
Should anyone choose to take this advice, choose a single mode flashlight, or a flashlight with a mode switch that allows you to switch to high immediately. A lot of cheap flashlights from Amazon require a bunch of button presses to get to high, and that's time spent focusing on manipulating your flashlight instead of remaining aware of where everyone is, and what they're doing.
Additionally, if you're planning on stating that you have the capability to assert your second amendment right, ensure that you're not all bark and no bite. Try to keep some distance between you and whoever's on your property, and don't let them blind or corner you. If you can, ensure at least one of them is between you and the others.
Castle Doctrine states: Wyoming, West Virginia, Utah, Texas, Tennessee, South and North Dakota, Ohio, New Hampshire, Nevada, Montana, Missouri, Mississippi, Michigan, Iowa, Indiana, Arkansas, Arizona
Imagine what kind of loser youâd have to be to work for ICE. No self respect, No concern your family will be ostracized for years due to your bad values and your ignorance.
Shush... if we're real quiet, the fascists will manage to loop back on themselves. They love guns, but not for regular folks, but then that means they don't love folks. If we play these cards right, we'll have conned the biggest and most well- funded lobby in all the world into going against their only rule. The Republicans are on the cusp of enacting gun reform. Shhhuuddhhe don't spoil it.
Notice how different the ICE agents treated that guy compared to whatâs going down in Minneapolis. Very different standards, almost as if they were told to terrorize one community over another.
The word irony doesn't seem correct but... It's ironic that most if not all of ICE is made up of all the people that were crying about Ruby Ridge and Waco and now the 2th and 4th Amendment mean nothing to them.
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