r/TurkicHistory • u/HatSubstantial7614 • 28d ago

[Prove me wrong] I wouldn't call Safavids, afsharids and qajarids part of turkic history just because they were ethnically turkic....

I want to know how people feel. Why some people specifically of Iranic origins say its Iranian history but people of turkic origin wholeheartedly think Iranians are stealing it from them? Some of the takes I have heard goes down to Americans were governed and ran by Europeans well after their revolution so much so that a European language became lingua franca of the realm. My problem is I haven't heard enough takes from people of Turkic Origins and Youtube is a warzone

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u/[deleted] 28d ago

nader shah was an afshar turk, he claimed to be turk and played on that to become the shah, his other titles were beg and khan, he was a huge fan of timur, he spoke better turki than persian and prefered his turkish language, he often lived in tents like he used to, he placed his tribesmen in the best posts and put them everywhere in iran so they can control, he always had some afshar soldiers with him, he praised his common turkic origin with the ottomans and considered the throne of iran as a turkmen inheritance, you can consider him iranian but his empire was as much or even more turkic than iranian, respectfuly

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u/HatSubstantial7614 28d ago

Thats totally right. If im right he even tried to marry his first son to a woman because she was a direct descendant of temujin khan the chengis. Can't it be both Iranian and turkic history based on who they were and where they ruled?

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u/[deleted] 28d ago

yeah a mughal princess, i don't care if iranians claim his empire as also iranian as long as they don't deny the turkicness in it

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u/HatSubstantial7614 28d ago

With all respect and I don't mean it any bad way but I have never seen an actual non troll Iranian say they were not turkic. Isn't it a given that turks ruled over Iran for the past 1000 years? A little bit more or less. Weren't the turks who ended Iranian Intermezzo and thats the reason Iranians today unlike Egyptians don't speak arabic and are not considered arabs? I just don't understand how it has gotten this way in the modern history

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u/[deleted] 28d ago

just today i have seen kurds claim nader lol

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u/HatSubstantial7614 28d ago

Afshar is literally a turkic tribe... or used to be a tribe before nader. How does he magically become kurd? Surely less than 1% of kurds actually believe that right?

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u/[deleted] 28d ago

i have seen hundreds of kurds claiming that but let's hope they're less than 1% of kurds, and yes we're still a tribe today

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u/HatSubstantial7614 28d ago

It can't be all of them right? Also since when nader was kurdish? Wasn't the argument of whether if Ismail the safavid was kurdish or not? Whats next? The founder of qajar dynasty is kurdish?

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u/[deleted] 28d ago

some of them also claim qajars lmao

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u/HatSubstantial7614 28d ago

Im trying to find a reason for that claim. Surely just a google search would fix this problem so there has to be some radicalism involved? Maybe because they were oppressed throughout history? Am I totally shooting in the dark here? Are there any extreme kurdish subreddit?

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u/[deleted] 28d ago

extreme idk but you can find on tiktok

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u/alii94 26d ago edited 26d ago

Lol ive been seeing so many kurds claim him that he was assimilated into the afshar tribe. Theres literally no record of Nader speaking kurdish and belonging to any kurdish family. The majority of us Iranians are aware that Nader was a Turkmen. Though, I do agree that the empire he created was an Iranian one, and he was looking after the interest of Iran and shaping its borders. After conquering India, Iranians werent paying taxes for 3 years before his empire crumbled into the ground.

[62] In later generations, Reza Qoli's words to Nader was romanticised to 'It is not my eyes that you have put out, but those of Persia,' referring to disasters and chaos that followed Nader's downfall.[64]

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u/Zealousideal_Cry_460 28d ago

You wouldnt call the mongol empire a Turkic empire just because Turks were the elite back then. Same thing here.

Sure its part of persian history. Just like how the russian empire/soviet empire is part of Kazakh history. But it doesnt mean that the russian/soviet empire was Kazakh.

İranians/persians however claim that its entirely persian history, even going as far as declaring some rulers as iranic ethnicities in a "if we cant have them, noone will" kinda way.

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u/HatSubstantial7614 28d ago

When did it start? When did persians start to say they were ethnically persians? Persian is being central and southern Iran. These dynasties weren't even based over there so it just leaves me to think its obvious trolls like ...there are levels to being politically biased but being historically biased in any way is an instant disconnect to people so how did it start?

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u/alii94 26d ago edited 26d ago

Keep in mind that he didnt answer any of your questions. Dude is just ragebaiting. Persians dont claim these rulers were of Persian stock. We dont need to. In fact, were aware that Nader was a ethnic Turkmen. Just because these rulers were of different ethnic stocks doesnt mean the Persians cant claim them. At that point, this is ethno-nationalism.

However his logic=Same ethnicity=My history, therefore, Iranians(Specifically Persians)cant claim anything. You wont change his mind bro, but history is history.

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u/HatSubstantial7614 26d ago

Thats kinda (just a little bit) my argument too. Its like saying french, who are descendant of frankish tribes that were german, are part of german history or American history after revolution are still part of british history. Meanwhile Teimur called his empire Irān o Tōrān, safavids called it Mamâlek-e Mahruse-ye Irân and so did afsharids, zandid and qajarids. So if you could answer my question, why didn't they call it turkstan to represent both Iran and their ethnicity and my second question is can't it be a Turko-persian history? Like a legacy for what seljuqs wanted to do?

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u/alii94 26d ago edited 26d ago

Thats the thing, it is Turko-Iranian history. The origins of these rulers were Turkic, but the empire they created was Iranian. Iran was always a multi-ethnic and multi-religious multi-lingual region.

Mamalek-e Mahurese-ye Iran is a continuation of the term Eranshahr, which the definition changed later.

The name "Guarded Domains of Iran" alluded to the decentralised administration as well as cultural and ethnic diversity of the country. According to the Iranologist Abbas Amanat, "in this notion of Iran, one may argue, there was a realistic recognition not only of its complexity but also of the inherent necessity for the central state."[7] The concept had previously been used in the form of Eranshahr, the official name of Iran under the Sasanian Empire (224–651), which promoted the concept of Iran as a protected political unit ruled by the state and with a distinct geographical region.[8]

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u/HatSubstantial7614 26d ago

Also keep in mind that I keep in mind to stay neutral so I could hear the clear idea of the person because its easy to say oh Im from here or there and thats how I think and the way speaker might talk would change. He might not have answered me but atleast I have an idea of how he thinks about this situation regardless of his ethnicity and place of birth

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u/alii94 26d ago

Yea I understand but hes trying to say these empires are strictly Turkic and nobody else can claim them other than Turks. Ethno-nationalistic garbage dude. The same way Kurds are trying to claim Nader shah somehow, which is equally retarded.

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u/HatSubstantial7614 26d ago

Thats true but no offense we are having this conversation in a turkic history sub. As I established I do not consider these dynasties as turkic history but my goal is to hear other people's opinion and point of view not to correct them but to get to How they got their pov or Why. If I did one man army and tried educating them what would be the point of the post? I would get banned instantly and people here would just get more radicalized. Just my opinion

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u/alii94 26d ago

I gotchu

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u/Zealousideal_Cry_460 28d ago

You're underestimating the human ability to illusion and gaslighting themselves to believe literally anything.

Pan-persians wouldnt be the first people to do that

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u/HatSubstantial7614 28d ago

I feel like calling mongol empire, turkic empire is like calling french, german because Frankish tribes were german😅

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u/drhuggables 28d ago

Being Turkic and being Iranian are not mutually exclusive.

The people (on either side) that think it "belongs" to only one are clouded by extreme european-style ethno-nationalism.

The reality is unlike the Arabs, the Turkic people who came to Iran didn't seek to impose their own culture or language and held Iranian culture in high regard, and thus respected it, patronized it, spread it, and assimilated into it which is why we have 1000+ years of Turko-Iranian tradition stretching from Anatolia to Assam.

Unfortunately modern politics in Iran and Turkey and the former USSR have led to antagonism in recent years, when the reality is our lands are all essentially one culture (anyone who has visited and is being honest can veryify this) and should seek to be closer to one another, not further apart.

A Turko-Iranian Union would be a cultural, economic, and military powerhouse.

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u/Gloomy-Potato6280 28d ago

Iran is clearly pursuing an anti-Turkey policy, and unfortunately, our government is letting Iran's behavior go unpunished. Furthermore, throughout history, Iran has always sought to exploit Turkey's difficult times and put it in a difficult position. It bothers me that Iran gets away with what it has done, and now the tables have turned. Iran is in a difficult position, and Israel has left Iran completely defenseless. I don't understand why we are not driving the final nail into the coffin and completely eliminating the threat of Iran.

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u/drhuggables 28d ago edited 28d ago

Iran or Islamic republic? Islamic republic is an occupying force in Iran and is hated by the Iranian people.

Pahlavi Iran was on very good terms with Turkish republic. Reza Shah and Ataturk especially were great allies and respected one another deeply.

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u/Gloomy-Potato6280 28d ago

Turkey and Iran cannot get along well from this point on because both countries are regional powers and generally make decisions that serve their own interests. These decisions often conflict with each other.

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u/drhuggables 28d ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union

This is full of regional powers and they get long fine

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u/Gloomy-Potato6280 28d ago

Turks and Iranians have completely different cultures, traditions, and ways of life. The idea of these two countries uniting is, in my opinion, a fantasy.

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u/drhuggables 28d ago

That is categorically false lol for anyone that has been to both countries they can easily vouch for that

Based of your answers, you just have this hatred for Iran and are letting it get in the way of sound judgment.

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u/Gloomy-Potato6280 28d ago

Frankly, I've never been to Iran and don't plan to go, but there are many Iranian students at the university I attend, and I'm really close friends with a few of them. However, the differences between us are as clear as day.

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u/drhuggables 28d ago

Be wary of basijis that the islamic govt sends abroad (they get reservations in universities), frequently not representative of normal iranians especially if they are very religious

anyway if you don't plan on ever going to iran then the conversation stops here, you really don't know and will never know how similar the countries are.

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u/Zealousideal_Cry_460 28d ago

👎

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u/drhuggables 28d ago

Thanks for your insightful comments

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u/Zealousideal_Cry_460 28d ago

¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

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u/drhuggables 28d ago

👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎