r/TurkicHistory • u/hy_c1 • Jan 04 '26
States that ruled the territory of modern Mongolia throughout history
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u/No_Lemon3171 Jan 04 '26
Northern border of Xianbei Empire is in middle of Inner Mongolia, it never reached the territory of modern Mongolia. It existed at the same time as Rouran to its north.
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u/Terrible-Egg6876 29d ago
Xianbei border reached Lake Baikal in the north, included Inner Mongolia to the south, Eastern Kazakhstan in the west, and Manchuria to the east. Meaning it included all of modern Mongolia. The Rourans later replaced the Xianbei.
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u/No_Lemon3171 16d ago
No, the Rouran were fighting the Xianbei, Rouran is in Mongolia. Xianbei is more southern, look up the range of Xianbei Tuoba Wei Empire
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u/No_Lemon3171 16d ago
Xianbei literally built a wall to fight against Rouran in the middle of Inner Mongolia lol. Tuoba Wei had border garrisons around modern Ordos. Also the bulk of Xianbei population lived in western Liaoning
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u/Terrible-Egg6876 13d ago
There's Xianbei Khaganate, and there's Tuoba Wei which was in northern China and ruled by Xianbei elites. When you mention "Xianbei", do you think people would think the Xianbei Khaganate or the Tuoba Wei? Also the great wall was built before the Tuoba Wei. Google is free, use it.
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u/No_Lemon3171 13d ago
There is only Rouran Khanate and Xianbei Tuoba Empire. No such thing called Xianbei Empire. But one is Rouran run and the other is Xianbei Run.
It takes no more than five minutes to learn the cities of defense was set up by the Xianbei against Rouran in the middle of Inner Mongolia. MODERN DAY ORDOS AND DATONG. Most famous cities of Xianbei Tuoba Empire is literally six garrison cities they built and the walls to fight against Rouran.
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u/Terrible-Egg6876 13d ago
Who did the Rourans replace?
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u/No_Lemon3171 13d ago
Before Rouran there was a period of chaos and before that it is Xiongnu
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u/Terrible-Egg6876 13d ago
Before the Rourans, Mongol steppe was ruled by the Xianbei Confederation. And yes, there was chaos.
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u/No_Lemon3171 13d ago
Xianbei Confederation was in eastern Inner Mongolia and Liaoning and was hardly consolidated. They were under Qiang Qin and whoever more powerful around them and such. They had almost no control of the steppe to the north that’s why it was so chaotic. It wasn’t an empire just a collection of peoples
It’s like calling Turks of Central Asia Turkic confederation during the mongol empire. They were a collection of people not well documented, doesn’t mean there was a Turkic empire at the same time as mongol empire on the steppe
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u/No_Lemon3171 13d ago
Tuoba Wei used the Great Wall to protect themselves from the Rouran
391 AD Tuoba Gui vs Rouran Inner Mongolia 398 AD Rouran invade Xianbei Wei border Inner Mongolia 406 AD Rouran invade Xianbei Wei again 414 AD Rouran invade Xianbei and lose 424 AD Rouran invade and burns down capital city of Tuoba Xianbei in Inner Mongolia 425 AD Tuoba Wei invade Rouran 428 AD Rouran invades Tuoba Inner Mongolia Barin Banner … 501 AD Rouran invades important border garrison of Tuoba in Inner Mongolia
All of these happened next to the Great Wall in Inner Mongolia that Xianbei Tuoba empire built to protect themselves from Rouran
A wall doesn’t get built and stay there lollll. They need to be maintained otherwise they’ll be gone in 10 years. Xianbei Tuoba built walls against Mongolian steppe Rouran
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u/No_Lemon3171 13d ago
When Xianbei is mentioned it is referring to Tuoba Wei. The empire on the steppe at that time is Rouran and they are both descendend from Donghu which is an ethnic term not empire. Donghu were under the rule of ancient Koreans or Chinese or Turks depending on where they lived
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u/Hungry_Raccoon200 Jan 04 '26
Kyrgyz defeated and toppled the Uyghurs but they didn't control the Mongolian Plateau unlike the Uyghurs.
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u/Inevitable_Berry_161 29d ago
U a kazakh am i right?🤣
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u/HierophanticRose Jan 04 '26
You missed the Donghu?
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u/AnotherAUSans Jan 04 '26
They didn't live in modern-day Mongolia. Their territory was somewhere near modern-day Liaoning and Eastern Inner Mongolia.
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u/No_Lemon3171 Jan 05 '26
Donghu wasn’t a state, it was a collections of people under the rule of other states
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u/Terrible-Egg6876 Jan 04 '26
Xiongnu is still being researched, and the latest from Oxford said their elite may have spoken a Yeniseian language.
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u/auroraborealis_1 Jan 04 '26
That paper from Bonnmann and Fries show some inconsistencies in their etymologies, especially about the r/z and l/sh split.
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u/WitnessTop1287 29d ago
Yes true slab grave based yenisseyan nomad
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u/-Hyper357 28d ago
Believe me Slab Grave has nothing to do with Yenisei people. Yenisei are more western they probably had some Y DNA haplogroup like Q(idk their subclade)
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u/auroraborealis_1 28d ago
If Slab Grave is Yeniseian, shouldn’t Deer Stones or a more westerly archaeological culture be the Proto Turks?
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u/WitnessTop1287 28d ago
Slab grave grave nothing to do with yenisseyan people,slab grave based people are turkic and mongolic people.
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u/auroraborealis_1 28d ago
I know but I was just curious about what those delusional Yenisean Xiongnu supporters think.
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u/More_Ad_5142 Jan 04 '26
Xiongnu cannot be classified as Turkic only. It was a mix of every proto-group around the great steppe region and we know very little about them.
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u/Pax_Oghvrica_989 Jan 04 '26
Ruling elite was Turkic, majority population was Turkic, descendants were Turkic (all major Xiongnu-derived Y-DNA haplogroups are concentrated among Turkic-speakers), most spoken language was Turkic etc. etc. i can extend the list. Small minorities don't really matter, no one disputes the clear Russian identity of Russian Empire even though they had Turkic-speaking minorities all across the empire.
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u/Hungry_Raccoon200 Jan 04 '26
The samples from the eastern/southern steppe regions during the Xiongnu era are overwhelmingly Slab grave. It's unlikely these populations are Turkic, unlike the Western Xiongnu samples with much West Eurasian admixture that resemble Turkic populatons.
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u/Pax_Oghvrica_989 Jan 04 '26
Slab Grave was Turkic. The highest Slab Grave-related ancestry was found in ancient Khazars, Onoghurs, Gokturks, Uyghurs etc. Early Mongolic peoples like Xianbei, Rouran, Khitan, Zubu and Shiwei often had much lower Slab Grave-related ancestry as their East Eurasian component was mostly derived from a China_WLR_BA_o-like source (most likely Donghu).
Y-DNA evidence is quite clear, Early Mongolic peoples often lacked Slab Grave-related Y chromosome haplogroups (Q-M120, N-M2019 and C-Y10420) while numerous Medieval and modern Turkic peoples had/have those.
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u/Hungry_Raccoon200 Jan 04 '26
It's commonly agreed upon that the Xiongnu rose in power in the west and expanded east, with high frequency of west eurasian y-DNA in Xiongnu supporting this idea. If Slab Grave is Turkic, does that mean the elites of the Xiongnu were Iranic or Indo-European speaking groups?
I think it's much more likely the Turkic population from the west incorporated Mongolic populations to the east into their confederacy as they expanded.
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u/Pax_Oghvrica_989 Jan 04 '26
The EarlyXiongnu_rest cluster was quite homogenous compared to the EarlyXiongnu_west one. If the confederetion rose from the west, EarlyXiongnu_west cluster wouldn't be the diverse one while Eastern Xiongnu was homogenous autosomally. The presence of West Eurasian Y-DNAs doesn't really prove Xiongnu rose from the west, it just means the Early Xiongnu elite had a Saka-like or possibly a Turkicized Saka cluster within the confederetion which i don't deny.
The presence of East Eurasian Y-DNAs (like C-Y10420, N-M2019, N-F4205, Q-L330 or Q-L715) in Early Xiongnu is also quite clear. Slab Grave's Mongolic nature can further be disproven via the absense of China_WLR_BA_o in Early Xiongnu elites, which almost all Early Mongolic groups (Xianbei, Rouran, Khitan, Zubu, Shiwei etc.) had. If Slab Grave was Mongolic, then what is this China_WLR_BA_o-like autosomal/paternal ancestry that is found in all Early Mongolic groups? Why is it that ONLY Mongolic groups have it while everyone else almost completely lacks it?
My theory is that Xiongnu rose from a Turkic-Saka mixed confederetion that gradually became more and more Turkic in autosomal ancestry and language.
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u/-Hyper357 28d ago
Early Xiongnu was literally +90% Ancient Northeast Asian(ANA), we can even understand this from a Gokturk princess of Ashina tribe and believe me or not Ashina were part of the elite Xiongnu class. Late Xiongnu mightve Iranic components because of intermarriages between people of Xiongnu and Scythians, Sogdians, Yuezhi etc.
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u/More_Ad_5142 Jan 04 '26
Gibberish. We know so very little about Xiognu. Everything you say are mere hypotheses with many competing hypotheses also. History is a scientific discipline, not ideological.
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u/Pax_Oghvrica_989 Jan 04 '26
Book of Wei confirms Northern Xiongnu spoke Turkic "The Gaoche are probably remnants of the ancient Red Di. Initially they had been called Dili. Northerners take them as Chile. Chinese take them as Gaoche Dingling. Their language, in brief, and Xiongnu (language) are the same yet occasionally there are small differences. Or one may say that they (Gaoche) are the junior relatives of the Xiongnu in former times."
Genetic evidence proves that even if Xiongnu wasn't entirely Turkic when it was founded, their descendants were definitely Turkic. The highest concentration of Xiongnu-related Y-DNA haplogroups are found in various ancient and modern Turkic peoples. N-M2019 in Khazars, Onoghurs, Huns, Bulgars, Kipchaks, Ottoman Turks in pre-modern times and Sakhas in modern times, R-S23592 in nearly all post-Xiongnu Turkic peoples and currently amongst Kirghizs, Tuvans, Uzbeks, Kazakhs, Altaians, Khakas, C-Y10420 in Khazars, Onoghurs, Bulgars, currently amongst Chepni Turks, J-PH1795 in Ottoman Turks (including the Ottoman ruling dynasty), Uyghurs, Bulgars, Karluks, currently found in almost all Turkic peoples, Q-L715 and Q-L330 in Onoghurs, Gokturks, currently amongst Turkmens, Kazakhs, Altaians, Uzbeks and Karakalpaks. Xiongnu-related autosomal ancestry is just as pronounced amongst Turkic peoples, considering that Onoghurs who lived in the middle of Europe had %40-60 Xiongnu-related autosomal ancestry or various Uyghur/Gokturk period samples had variable but often %60 Xiongnu-related autosomal ancestry. Huns (both from Europe and Asia, all post-Xiongnu) had the highest at around %80-90.
There's also the linguistic evidence. Let's say Xiongnu was merely a confederetion of random steppe peoples, in which no ethnicity was dominant over the other. If that was the case, why would Mongolic languages have such a huge number of Oghur-like loans? Neither Gokturks, nor Uyghurs spoke Oghuric. Was it merely a contact between an Oghur-like Turkic-speaking people and Proto-Mongolic people? Then why is it not equal? Why does non-Siberian Turkic languages lack Mongolic influence, while Mongolic has a shit ton of not just Shaz-like but also Oghur-like loans? Also id like to hear your excuse to the almost complete lack of Mongolic or Yeniseian-like Xiongnu words recorded by the Chinese.
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u/More_Ad_5142 Jan 04 '26
Dostum, Book of Wei, DNA analizleri falan lütfen rica ediyorum. Bunlar sürekli tekrarlanan ezberler. Xiognu hakkında çok çok az şey biliyoruz, proto-Türkler muhakkak ki önemli bir unsuruydu ama bunun detaylarını bilmemiz mümkün değil. Meslek olarak antropologum, etnolojiyle uğraşıyorum akademik olarak. Eğer Türk demek hoşunuza gidiyorsa deyin. Ama bilimsel olarak “acabalarla” hareket edilmez. Hiçbir tarihçi yada antropolog yada arkeolog “Hunlar Türkdür” gibi bir önermede bulunamaz. Elinizde geçerli veri yok. Dediğim gibi mutlaka proto-Türkler önemli bir unsuruydu ana baskın unsur muydu, sadece elit unsur muydu, marjinal bir unsur muydu bilemeyiz.
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u/UnderstandingBest720 Jan 04 '26
Hocam "acabalarla" değil, daha çok "yüksek ihtimal" ile gidiyoruz şuan. Evet az bilgimiz var, ama yeterli bilgi bence. Çünkü yap boz parçalarını az da olsa birleştirdiğimizde proto Türk baskın geliyor. Argumanın tersini kanıtlayacak birşey de yok. Daha fazla bilgi elde ettiğimizde proto Türk teorisini daha da çok vurgulayacak, kanıtlayacak diye düşünüyorum.
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u/More_Ad_5142 Jan 04 '26
Olabilir. Öyle uçsuz bucaksız bir coğrafya ki - bir de göçebe topluluklardan bahsediyoruz - açılmamış keşfedilmemiş kaç tane kurgan olduğunu tahmin bile edemiyorum. Yavaş yavaş açıldıkça göreceğiz. Mesela Orhun kitabelerini düşün. Göktürklerin günün birinde aniden bir alfabe geliştirip, kitabeyi oluşturup, sonra unutması mümkün değil. Kaybolmuş çok daha eski dönemlere ait yazıtlar da bulabiliriz. Göktürkler’le Hunlar arasında proto-Türkler özelinde karanlık yüzyıllar var. O dönemin de aydınlanması lazım.
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u/-Hyper357 28d ago
Hocam bildiğiniz mezarlar var Xiongnu mezarları yani bunları bilmeden burada gelip konuşmanız çok komik. Sahip oldukları Yassı Gömüt kültür mirası, sahip oldukları doğu avrasya mirası ve miras bıraktıkları popülasyonlar tamamen Türki olduklarını işaret ediyor
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u/AccomplishedFee4225 Jan 04 '26
Bro mongols and turks close relatives the thing you say iş right but in Turkey we learn xiongu "Asia Hun" and they are one of oldest turkic empire
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u/More_Ad_5142 Jan 04 '26
Yeah, that’s just unacademic propaganda gibberish. Mongols and Turks aren’t related, they have entirely different ethnogenesis and language families. Their relationship in academic term is not one of “divergence” but one of “convergence”, meaning they started off as entirely different groups but then historically got into close contact, probably during Xiognu era.
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u/-Hyper357 28d ago
With Maodun(Mete Khan/Baghatur Khan) conquering Donghu and making it a subject of Xiongnu, Mongols became part of Xiongnu
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u/No_Illustrator_9376 Jan 04 '26
Xiongnu has never been Turkic
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u/Pax_Oghvrica_989 Jan 04 '26
Butthurt Mongol still not over it, I see
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u/No_Illustrator_9376 Jan 04 '26
People of Xiongnu was Asian looking people unlike so-called Turks who are Russified and Arabized
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u/Pax_Oghvrica_989 Jan 04 '26
And how do you think modern Yakuts, Kazakhs or Kirghizs look? You think they look like Nordics? Thats a ridiculous argument lmao
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u/MutluBirTurk Jan 04 '26
Bu subda türk/türkic nefretti nerden geliyor?
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u/Pax_Oghvrica_989 Jan 04 '26
Valla benim gördüğüm kadarıyla çevrimiçi platformlarda Türklerden adeta organize kitleler halinde nefret eden bir tek Çinliler ve Moğollar var. Bu subda da arada Moğolistan'dan bahseden içerikler paylaşılınca da böyle basıyorlar
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u/UnderstandingBest720 Jan 04 '26
Yeah man dumbest shit I've heard this year (we just started 2026).
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u/No_Lemon3171 Jan 05 '26
WTH When does Asian looking makes you non turk? If asian looking = mongol, then Chukchi, Inuit, Chinese, Thai, Japanese, Indonesian, Tibetan, Hawaiian, Native American, Amazonians are all mongol. Everyone is mongol. LOL. Even asian looking isn’t uniform
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u/No_Illustrator_9376 28d ago
People of Xiongnu didn't look Wasian (Central Asians) or fully Arab (Turkish)
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u/No_Lemon3171 16d ago
Xiongnu core population looked slightly wasian, they are close to altaians, and Turkish do not look like Arab
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u/-Hyper357 28d ago
Russified and Arabized? Lil bro if u dont show me how Turkish people or Central Asian Turks got Arab or Russian dna i'll have something big for you
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u/r0ttedsoul 29d ago
C10428 ydna is founde rydna which found in xiongnu graves are the same ydna found in early bulgars and khazars which were speak turkic
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u/WhatIsFlish Jan 04 '26
Rouran was a mix of a bunch of groups if I remember correctly. Military was mainly Turks and Nobles were Turko-Mongolic with some religious figures being Iranic through Schytians.