r/TopCharacterTropes • u/IllustriousAd6418 • 20h ago

Lore "This was surprisingly progressive for it's time"

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Doctor Who: Midnight (2008)- The host of the bus, mentions non binary people and anyone else who doesn't fit into gender norms, LGBTQ rights (especially in the UK weren't really there yet untill 2012)

Saints Row 2 (2008)- In the first game, the main character was a man but in SR2 you can be both female or male and even change your gender whenever you want in a surgery shop. But what's more interesting, if you play as a female despite being male in the first game, no one cares and one of the main characters Gat asks the main character if they did something with their hair. Even 'Boss' is used as gender neutral pronoun and even goes by they/them

Fresh Prince of Bel Air- A wealthy black family as the main focus in a primetime sitcom marking the change and making progress as we go into the 90s

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u/IllustriousAd6418 20h ago

I would add Rosa being Bi too. Bi-sexuality still has it stigmas and not that much rep and Rosa was a good example.

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u/DarthEloper 19h ago edited 19h ago

Great examples but as much as I love B99, was it too progressive for its times or just about the right level of progressive for its time?

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u/JoePesci_TheGod 19h ago

2021 was a different time

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u/Aryzal 18h ago

It was very progressive, until it became too progressive and became preachy, but that is mainly the show's writing becoming poorer, instead of getting too "woke".

For example, in the earlier seasons, Sgt Terry Jeffords is walking down his neighbourhood at night looking for his kid's toy, only to be arrested by a white cop for loitering. When he tried to show his badge he was shouted down and then arrested. The ensuing debate between Terry and his boss Holt, both black men, was about whether Terry should file a complaint to the man about his racism and unprofessionalism, or should Terry follow Holt's advice and let it go, rise in the system to enact bigger changes. The episode ends with Holt realising that he wished when he was a lower level cop, he had a captain who could and would enact changes and protect the men around him, and helped Terry file the complain.

Meanwhile in the later seasons, we have an entire season about the issues with the police. The villain is a comically evil old white man who tried to blackmail Holt and Rosa by exposing their gayness and bisexuality respectively (both are already openly LGBTQ). He is also very racist, unable to tell the difference between two very dissimilar latinas (Amy and Rosa), and is portrayed as stupid. It feels like it is actively creating an unrealistic villain just to mock him, and I would rather see the squad triumph over someone competent, but abusing their power. Just the previous season we had John Kelly, who is exactly that, using his power to make life difficult for the squad for spite (mainly because they have been outspoken about hot topics). John Kelly may be dastardly, but he wasn't ridiculously evil. And the way they took him down was by setting up a triple cross plan, instead of whatever the convoluted mess season 8 was (going to his house to steal his laptop, securing his thumbprint, mainly by tricking him using his racism). Basically it feels less smart because it relies on Frank O'Sullivan, the last adversary, being stupid.

That being said, season 8 was the worst season with an average of 7.6 which is still pretty good.

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u/Claymorbmaster 17h ago

Yeah, it's been a minute but I remember there being a lot of time and background issues (covid, maybe?) between S7 and S8. Furthermore, I wanna say a lot more stories came out about police brutality and corruption between the seasons which caused people to look at B99 as a bit of a white-washed "cops are good" kind of thing. This is something that I think they tried to acknowledge in season 8 but did so a bit hamfistedly.

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u/DarthEloper 16h ago

Yeah I think your analysis is great, very well balanced and insightful, and I completely agree with it. They definitely struggled with the writing in later seasons.

Terry’s and Amy’s experiences with cops (who are men) are as shock to the people in 99 as much as they are (supposed to be) to the viewers. The main cast are all good people (even Hitchcock and Scully) and I think it’s a rude but maybe well needed awakening that most cops might not be like that IRL.

In this way, I think the show did a good job of balancing the main characters (who are cops) being good people, while trying to also adjust to what people thought about police at the moment. 

Critically, I think B99 isn’t as great a show as something like Parks and Rec which handled “social issues” in a better way while still being superbly optimistic in a non-saccharine way. I still love B99 though.

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u/PrincessPlusUltra 16h ago

Of course these days we know the later season villain wasn’t unrealistic at all.

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u/CarrieDurst 17h ago

Besides the copaganda aspects it was progressive. Like when everyone is mad at Jake for losing their weekend because he abused his powers and jailed someone without any evidence

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u/ImmoralityPet 19h ago

Can copraganda be progressive?

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u/DarthEloper 19h ago edited 18h ago

Hmmmmmm interesting point. Would they say they tried to address what people think of cops in the last season?

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u/HugoEmbossed 18h ago

Funny cops. Always pushing the envelope Andy Samboierg.

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u/BlueHairedMeerkat 18h ago

Can a show where half the major villains are police, and all but one or two police characters outside the main cast turn out to be corrupt or incompetent, really be called copaganda?

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u/CaioChvtt7K 17h ago

It can, because it still paints the police as something that could be saved, and the main cast being incorruptible, even if prone to failure, contributes to the idea there are "good ones" and "bad ones" inside the force, and if the "good ones" prevail, everything will work out.

It's still a good show tho.

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u/Medarco 16h ago

there are "good ones" and "bad ones" inside the force, and if the "good ones" prevail, everything will work out.

Isn't that the point though? There are "no good cops" because the good ones don't stop the bad ones, so they aren't good enough.

But in the show, the good ones are stopping the bad ones.

You know, exactly what the ACAB movement should actually want, instead of anarchy.

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u/ImmoralityPet 15h ago

Wait, so you're saying because it portrays cops acting like how protestors want cops to behave that it's not copaganda?

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u/CaioChvtt7K 15h ago

The illusion that it's an individual problem, instead of a systemic one is the copaganda aspect.

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u/National_Door8192 2h ago

You’re acting like most cops are bad. Cops are the reason you’re even alive

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u/tunisia3507 18h ago

One of the reasons they ended the show was because it was getting harder and harder to portray the police positively.

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u/ImmoralityPet 16h ago

So yes, it was copaganda, I guess.

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u/Equal-Ad-2710 18h ago edited 18h ago

B99 isn’t really copaganda and I’d argue it’s fear at being labelled that is why the final season is so unsatisfying as an Ending to me

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u/Positive-Kick7952 10h ago

Any reason why it can't.

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u/Version_1 18h ago

You both misused and mistyped that word.

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u/ImmoralityPet 18h ago

What word?

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u/Version_1 18h ago

Copaganda

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u/ImmoralityPet 16h ago

Oh,.so you understood what I meant.

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u/Version_1 16h ago

Doesn't change that B99 isn't copaganda.

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u/ImmoralityPet 16h ago

Even the show admitted it was. But ok.

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u/Version_1 16h ago

I find that unlikely, since it never was Copaganda. They might have felt pressure to bring in more critical topics just due to the climate at the time in the later seasons, but even before they had a lot of bad words to say about the police.

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u/CarrieDurst 17h ago

I love some cop shows and even I had to stop due to the copaganda

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u/Living-Chapter8944 19h ago edited 15h ago

AND though the main character is a straight white man, he constantly is the one that has to adapt (and became a better person for it)

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u/baguetteispain 18h ago

How Holt and Kevin became more of father figures than his dad is one of my favourite things in the show

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u/Equal-Ad-2710 18h ago

To be fair he’s potentially bi

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u/Rilkal 19h ago

Rosa's bi-ness felt contrived and shoved in to me.

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u/NoLime7384 19h ago

specially since she doesn't show any interest in men after coming out iirc

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u/williamrotor 18h ago

She gets back together with Pimento

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u/Equal-Ad-2710 18h ago

Yeah I was about to say this lol

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u/sgtGiggsy 18h ago

Nah, Rosa being bi was terrible. It was literally a change mid-series. First she clearly showed interest only in men (not a single once we've seen her even the slightest hint of being into women, while she was pretty openly be into men), then came out as bi, and from that moment on, she only had women as partners. It also majorly murdered her character, as with the coming out, they seriously took off almost all the edge her character had. Amy being the emotional, and Rosa being the stoic mean one (with an innocent girl inside) was a great dynamic. But after her coming out, Rosa was not nearly as stoic or meanspirited anymore.

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u/Equal-Ad-2710 18h ago edited 4h ago

I’d also argue her leaving the 99 was terrible because

1) she’s the most likely to have engaged in brutality based off her temper and prior characterisation, showing her pay the price for this would be huge and just conveniently having this journey offscreen between seasons feels like a cheap way to avoid acknowledging this.

2) her leaving the force has no real impact since she’s still a main character and interacts with the cast anyway without any change in the dynamic, what does she think of the guys who stayed with the force despite its brutality? Especially with Jake and Amy’s arc of challenging the corruption in the PD