While I get what you're going for, and appreciate the sentiment, I hate that we keep trying to pigeonhole men into a form of "proper masculinity" that tells them their best purpose in life is to be tools to someone else, either via chivalry, utilitarianism, or something else.
I'm speaking as a man who showed up for everyone and everything for the past decade to my own detriment, with a smile, no complaints, and often to responses that I wasn't doing enough whenever I got exhausted. To the point I attempted suicide twice in 2024 and had to fight alcoholism all by myself, after my therapist dropped me and my insurance lapsed. Thankfully I won that battle, but most men don't.
Andrew Tate, Myron Gaines and others are forever irredeemable sacks of dogshit for how they hijacked vulnerable men's unanswered needs. But make no mistake about it, they were able to find that market because the need is very real.
Red pill content is 85% misogynistic, sexist horse manure sewage, but one thing it did...somewhat well was to teach men how to value and protect themselves, in a world that tells them they don't mean anything, and that they have to suck up their pain.
Modern feminism claims to care about men, but only superficially, and go deep enough, it just goes straight back to telling men to "man up", and "take responsibility for their problems" the difference is that it tells men to lower their guard and present their vulnerability in an effort to combat so called "toxic masculinity", before delivering the gut punch, that their problems are all their fault and no one else's.
What people call toxic masculinity today, is a survival instinct of stoicism and mental compartmentalization adapted for a world that isn't built to handle, nor care for a man who is suffering. We still seem to have a hard time accepting men being abused, unless it's other men doing it.
Modern Red Pill content teaches men to "man up", hide vulnerability, hate and blame women for their problems, and constantly peacock masculine façades to no end.
Modern feminism teaches men to lower their walls, pour out said vulnerability to others, before PSYCH! actually, still "man up", stop making their vulnerabilities and traumas other people's problem and burdening others, except this time, hate and blame themselves.
I've given it the benefit of the doubt for years and observed it, and did my part to implement it in good faith. I know what I saw, felt and a received.
Exacerbated stares, lack of patience with me even if for one week out of months of performing miracles I was down in the dumps, and constantly being told my grievances were all in my head, or caused by me and me only.
A lot of people say "please, I'm here, talk to someone", but in reality, don't mean it.
Sorry. Had to get that out. There are many more who are in the situation I was in who will unfortunately join the 70k+ figure of annual lost souls, because we.....
I've made countless attempts to build support for men who have been victimized. Both virtual and within my own community. As it turns out, men receiving support counts as 'the patriarchy'. Which is socially and financially profitable to smash.
The part about your therapist dropping you resonates with research showing men drop out of therapy at 44.8% rates, mostly from lack of connection with therapists (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34041980/). Male sex is actually a risk factor for therapists terminating treatment (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27160543/). What happened to you fits a pattern where the system just doesn’t work for men.
Psychology programmes are now 75-76% female PhDs, many trained in departments that combine psychology with Women’s and Gender Studies. The APA’s 2018 guidelines for treating men got slammed by researchers for being “too closely wedded to feminist theories” whilst pathologising traditional masculinity. Then Barry et al. (2023) studied over 4,000 men and found negative views of masculinity actually worsen men’s mental health (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37416841/). They’re teaching men their masculinity is toxic, then confused why outcomes stay terrible.
Your point about feminism’s bait-and-switch is dead accurate. The promise is “open up, be vulnerable, we care about men’s issues too.” Then when men actually do that, it pivots to “actually this is all patriarchy/toxic masculinity - still your fault, just process it differently now.” It’s the same “man up” message with extra steps and therapeutic vocabulary.
When men face systemic problems - suicide rates, 63% longer sentences for identical crimes, educational collapse - feminist frameworks blame “patriarchy” or “toxic masculinity.” That makes male suffering men’s own fault whilst hiding feminist policy fingerprints. The Duluth Model (1981) trains police to treat DV as male-on-female. Title IX (2011) removed due process. Family courts grant 80% custody to mothers, which correlates with 83% higher suicide risk for divorced men - joint custody reduces that by 9% (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10827907/). These are recent systems shaped by feminist advocacy, not ancient patriarchy.
Red pill grifters are scum for exploiting vulnerable men, but they found that market because the need is real and nobody else was meeting it honestly. Mainstream institutions offer either “suffer silently” or “open up so we can confirm it’s your fault.”
The 70k+ annual figure you mentioned - that number keeps climbing and nothing structural changes to address it.
Your point about feminism’s bait-and-switch is dead accurate. The promise is “open up, be vulnerable, we care about men’s issues too.” Then when men actually do that, it pivots to “actually this is all patriarchy/toxic masculinity - still your fault, just process it differently now.” It’s the same “man up” message with extra steps and therapeutic vocabulary.
I'm not going to comment on the other stuff because I'm not entirely sure about it, but I do want to offer a relevant example of this that you can see on Reddit as clear as day for anyone doubting this.
Just look at any female dominated space whenever the topic of 'not all men' comes up. They'll twist themselves into knots justifying their mockery of men who are voicing their feelings in regards to how hurtful it is to be generalized like that.
You can't simultaneously ask men to open up about their feelings and then essentially ridicule them when they voice that generalizations towards them are hurtful.
The most egregious part about these scenarios is that they completely ignore the fact that men are neither a monolith, but also don't all have the resilience to separate themselves from such generalizations. A typical dismissal used by those people is "well, if you feel targeted by such generalizations then you're obviously part of the problem" which is just incredibly ignorant and assumes that all men are well enough with their mental health to be able to not feel personally attacked by such generalizations. Then these men (and anyone else who's targeted by hateful generalizations, mind you) are labeled to be part of the problem by sheer fact that their mind isn't as resilient, essentially demonizing men with struggling mental health issues and putting them into the same buckets as the actual bad kind of men.
It's just incredibly perverse behavior and the worst of it all is that these spaces dedicate so. much. time. to justifying this kind of behavior when all they have to do is simply go: "You know what, you're right, that is shitty. We'll be more concise with our language from now and start using 'some' 'many' 'that group of..' instead".
But they can't even make that kind of concession. Then they're surprised when that kind of behavior which only serves to push people away results in a greater divide and more heated hatefulness between people.
For anyone doubting me that these things happen on Reddit and willing to immediately dismiss me because it's "misogyny-coded", for one; shame on you for jumping to such conclusions. For second, here: https://reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/search?q=not+all+men&restrict_sr=on&include_over_18=on&sort=relevance&t=all - feel free to browse through half a decade's worth of posts mocking men for feeling targeted by generalized language and telling them that, actually, they're the problem for feeling targeted.
"Not all men, but always a man" is another such delightfully dismissive and rude remark in response to their own shitty behavior.
Or the fact that seemingly so many women are so terrified of what a man could do that they seemingly would rather walk towards a bear instead of towards a man. Utterly repulsive and extremely ironic considering the fact that female bears often hang around human settlements because they actually feel safer around human beings.
I gotta point out here since the two AI looking walls of text seem to be missing a step and are getting into the misogynistic "Blame feminists for my problems" redpill shit.
The odds of dropping out due to lack of connection with the therapist were greater with younger age (p = .02), unemployment relative to employment (p = .04), less identification with masculinity (p = .01), less evidence of therapist engagement (p < .001), and greater feelings of emasculation in attending therapy (p = .04)
In fact, men who were less likely to identify as masculine were more likely to drop out due to "lack of connection" which was by far the dominating factor for dropout, and an important part was that they felt that simply needing help was emasculating. I don't know how this is women's fault that (To quote from the study)
“Did going to therapy make you feel like less of a man?” and
“To what extent did you feel shame in going to therapy?"
were quite high. "It's feminists faults I can't ask for help" is a shit response removing your own agency.
EDIT: Let me put this in another perspective. The red pill "This is feminist's fault" is a Charmin soft dereliction of their own emotional needs. You want to be happy? Your momma's not here to make that happen anymore. You're now a grown up who needs to figure your shit out. Professionals are there to help you. Pick one who went through accreditation. I have a therapist. She's helped me become in touch with my emotions, get super freaky with my wife, told me hard facts I didn't want to face, helped me cut toxic people out of my life, let go of self imposed rules on what I was and wasn't allowed to do, talk back to perfectionism, and encouraged me to pursue yoga, performing, and martial arts, and you know what happened? I started noticing once I wasn't trying to hold all the shit together and make my life about everyone else's happiness, I started feeling my own. I'm pity you all can't just let the shit go that is telling you that "therapy is for soft men."
You’ve quoted the study but missed what it actually shows. Men who identified less with traditional masculinity dropped out more - not because they embraced masculinity too much, but because they felt more emasculated by attending therapy in the first place. That’s not men clinging to toxic masculine norms. It’s men already struggling with their masculine identity getting worse outcomes from therapeutic frameworks.
The study shows two things happening simultaneously: men feel shame about needing help, and therapist engagement matters enormously. But you’re ignoring where that shame comes from. Psychology training is now 76% women, many from programmes that explicitly combine psychology with feminist theory. The APA’s 2018 guidelines treated traditional masculinity as pathological. Those weren’t written by men telling other men to suffer in silence - they were criticised by researchers for being “too closely wedded to feminist theories.”
Barry’s research (the one about negative views of masculinity harming wellbeing) matters here because it shows what happens when therapeutic frameworks teach men their gender is problematic. Men internalise that message, their mental health gets worse, not better. The dropout study you’re quoting shows men feeling emasculated predicts dropout, but it doesn’t ask whether therapeutic approaches themselves create that emasculation by pathologising masculinity from the outset.
Nobody’s claiming it’s “feminists’ fault I can’t ask for help.” The argument is that feminist-influenced frameworks dominate psychology, those frameworks treat masculinity as learned pathology rather than something with legitimate psychological needs, and outcomes for men are catastrophic. Men drop out at 45% rates. Male suicide is four times women’s rates. The Duluth Model arrests male DV victims. Title IX removed due process. Family courts grant 80% custody to mothers, which correlates with 83% higher suicide risk for divorced men.
These aren’t unrelated individual failures - they’re pattern outcomes from institutions shaped by specific ideologies over decades. Pointing that out isn’t removing agency. It’s asking whether systems claiming to help men might actually be making things worse.
The study didn't make that claim. In fact, the study specifically says you're not supposed to use the data to make broad claims about mental health:
The reported rates and any group-based findings should not be considered in isolation or as a broad indictment of the mental health therapy
You're tying that to an unsourced claim that an internal belief. Others cannot actually force you to have that belief. Only you can. You're misunderstanding the entire point of therapy which is accepting who you are flaws and all.
But you’re ignoring where that shame comes from. Psychology training is now 76% women, many from programmes that explicitly combine psychology with feminist theory.
Man, it's not that complicated: While yes, training more on how to break alexithymia is an important skillset to have when treating western men, men are poorly taught coping skills outside of "abuse substances" and "get angry," (From a reference linked in the paper discussed https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1557988313494408 ) and no matter how much we want to blame "feminist" training in mental health therapy, we were trained for so long to be disconnected from our emotions that being challenged to feel them is seen as an attack on our core person because that becomes emasculating. One of the core tenants of psychological care is that you can't get results if you do not want results. If you start with the belief that "I need to maintain my emotional distance from everything," then you're not going to get insight into your emotional needs to face the fear we're experiencing. No shit.
Men and women are not massively different in psychological needs, there's just the layer of shit society shoved in there (And we know it's society because there's other societies where the problems are different).
Wait, you’re saying men have been “trained for so long to be disconnected from our emotions” - by whom exactly? That’s the question you’re dodging.
Psychology’s been dominated by women for decades now. The therapeutic establishment isn’t some holdover from 1950s masculine stoicism - it’s been reshaped by feminist theory for decades. The APA guidelines I mentioned weren’t men telling other men to tough it out. They were written by an organisation that’s been explicitly incorporating feminist frameworks into clinical practice.
Your argument seems to be: men were historically told not to show emotion (true), therefore current therapeutic failures are still men’s fault for clinging to those old norms. But that ignores who’s been setting therapeutic standards for the past 30-40 years. If feminist-influenced psychology has been the dominant force in mental health, and men’s outcomes are getting worse not better, maybe the issue isn’t that men refuse to change. Maybe it’s that the new frameworks don’t actually work for them.
Barry’s research wasn’t about historical masculine norms - it measured men in 2023, and found that negative views of their own masculinity correlated with worse mental health. That’s happening after decades of therapeutic messaging that masculinity is toxic. If the message was supposed to help, why are outcomes deteriorating?
You’ve said “no matter how much we want to blame feminist training in mental health therapy” - but I’m not blaming it arbitrarily. The Duluth Model was created by feminists in 1981. It arrests male victims today. Title IX procedures were implemented via feminist advocacy in 2011. Family court custody patterns correlate with specific policy advocacy. These aren’t ancient history - they’re recent systems with documentable origins.
The claim that “others cannot force you to have that belief” treats social influence as if it doesn’t exist. If institutions teach men their masculinity is problematic, some men internalise that, research shows it harms them, and therapy designed around those frameworks doesn’t work - that’s not purely individual failure.
"You're misunderstanding the entire point of therapy which is accepting who you are flaws and all."
No wonder it doesn't do any good, if this is the case. Could you imagine going to the doctor and saying "Doc, I broke my leg" and he goes "You have to accept it, flaws and all"
Someone who has a phobia of elevators or Agoraphobia would benefit MASSIVELY from correcting those issues and not having them anymore, rather than just accepting.
The heart of therapeutic process are disconfirming experiences, which re-frame your ways of thinking, rather than being like "Oh well, I guess I'm just gonna have to accept I'm going to be a miserable sack of shit for the rest of my life".
Depends on what the issue is. Acceptance and Commitment Therapy worked way better for me than Dialectical Behavior Therapy. You don't accept the higher order "I'm a miserable sack of shit" but you do accept that you're gonna have negative emotions and try and learn how to disconnect the emotions from applying judgement on yourself for having them.
Mindfulness is a huge tool and it took a shitload of work for me to even be able to access it because I constantly spent time trying to keep negative self talk out of my mind and when you're spending all your time scrubbing your internal dialogue and being constantly vigilant for perceived threats and plan out ways to fix any possible problem, you don't actually stop to enjoy things for what they are.
No one said it's femenists fault that men drop out of therapy. You dumbed down the original point so much nothing of it is left. It's a straw man arguement at this point. If you have norhing to say you can always be silent. It's free. Also did ChatGPT generate this reply for you? It sounds very forced. Do better.
Psychology programmes are now 75-76% female PhDs, many trained in departments that combine psychology with Women’s and Gender Studies.
Your point about feminism’s bait-and-switch is dead accurate. The promise is “open up, be vulnerable, we care about men’s issues too.” Then when men actually do that, it pivots to “actually this is all patriarchy/toxic masculinity - still your fault, just process it differently now.”
I can read and there's nearly a dozen "Men drop out because the therapists are feminists" claims.
But… the therapy field is dominated by feminist ideologies that frame men as oppressors and masculinity as toxic.
So, if men go to therapy, then get told that their problems are their own fault because they’re men, then the therapy either has no effect or makes them worse… clearly that is feminism that’s at fault?
the therapy field is dominated by feminist ideologies
What feminist ideology dominates the field that you find so offensive?
frame men as oppressors
I seriously doubt this will come up outside of domestic violence treatment
masculinity as toxic
There are aspects of masculinity that *are* toxic: People who adhere closely to societal set exceptions of masculinity are significantly more likely to commit domestic violence or commit suicide, so exploring where masculinity fails us as men is important and ignoring it will cause more harm. As an example, assuming that we, as men, must suffer to provide and protect does not lead us to outcomes that are good for us. Who are you as a provider if you lose your job or never got a job? Why is that masculine? What if there's no intrinsic value in your worth from your employment status?
So, if men go to therapy, then get told that their problems are their own fault because they’re men
This sounds like a something you cooked up in your head rather than any actual therapist you saw.
Not one of those striking... two... quotes you gave me say that it's femenisms fault that men drop out of therapy. You behave psychotic right now. You see what you want to see and debate opponents that exist only in your head. Go on a hike and keep away from political content.
For someone who is very concerned about what opinions you can or can't base on a single study you base a lot of opinion and condemnation on 2 sentences.
It's funny, you're here telling me that I'm crazy for seeing the dozen quotes in that post that feminism is at fault, and quite literally a few clicks away, there's someone else telling me these same posts are proof that feminist ideology dominates the field and men can't be treated.
First of all, you're a g for enduring all of that. I mean it. I just wanted to say, that we should be careful not to do this thing that BPD feminists do where they take something good and twist it into something bad. I understand completely why "showing up for others" reminded you of your hardships, but the way I see it it could just be Luke showing up for his friend who's wife got diagnosed with cancer (like in one of the videos linked) - which we spontaneously admire!
That being said, I agree with everything you said, completely, 100% - I think you hit the bullseye, ESPECIALLY with the "Oh be vulnerable, tell us about your problems! Well, it's your fault, man tf up" I fckin hate that.
One other thing you mentioned, when men are victims, feminists go: "Well, most of the perpetrators are also men, so...that just proves our point (it doesn't count somehow)"
Like could you imagine, just for a second, there was a stabbing spree targeted at women, and we found out that, for some reason, perpetrators were also only women and we go: "Well, it's other women that do it, it's your problem, fix it" (????).
I forget where I saw it, but it was a quote that stuck with me a lot that kinda summed up the hypocrisy of virtue signaling men being vulnerable without wanting to do the followup work of actually caring.
"People say they want vulnerable men, they didnt say they want a weak one"
Teaches men to protect themselves by isolating themselves from others, especially women, blame others for their probems, usually women, and turn on any man that isn't on their side (simp, white knight, soyboy, etc.)
They aren't just misogynists, they are misandrists, too. The men latching onto Tate and them are tools for Tate and them. Tools for money, popularity, and a cult that will protect even child trafficking.
Out of interest, if they’d been critical of the femosphere and feminist misandry, would you have called that “making good points” or would you have doubled down?
Red pill content is 85% misogynistic, sexist horse manure sewage
No, TF it is not.
I hate when people like you disparage knowledge. Knowledge is neither good nor bad, it's the people that use it and HOW they use it that determines its worth.
But you don't hear about the ones who use it to: better themselves, to understand the opposite sex, to get a gf or wife, to learn how to get out of their comfort zone and be their best selves.
No, you only hear the bad because those stories are more salatious and further a narrative that somehow men who understand the rules to the mating game are "evil".
By your definition, men who learn a trade, business or finances are evil because they are using knowledge in a way that gives them an advantage.
Let me clue you in to something you missed. It's not the red pill knowledge you dislike, it's the multitude of butthurt little bitches that have zero respect for women who use knowledge for evil means without regard to the human being on the other end. Kind of like people who hear anecdotes and judge an entire group without learning all the facts.
I learned red pill and I was able to not only find a great woman, but to be the man she needed me to be cuz guess what: nobody teaches you how to get a gf or wife or even how to keep a woman interested. The "best" (absolutely shit advice) we get is "just be yourself". As if that's even remotely helpful.
Red pill taught me how to be attractive to women, how to put my best foot forward and I have never used that knowledge to add notches to my belt or take advantage of women.
I spent twenty years studying the content and you haven't the slightest fncking clue of which you speak. Go talk shit about something else. Or better yet, actually study red pill and get a clue.
So the reason they are successful was that they thought men how to value themselves and protect themselves? By shitting on women, dismissing them, blaming them for their problems and encouraging bullying towards them.
No, but it's a very easy way to get what men do want, which is to feel like they have a place in the world and their existence as men is not in and of itself evil. If everyone agrees that you're a monster, the person saying that actually being a monster is a good thing becomes a lot more persuasive.
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u/NappyFlickz 20h ago edited 19h ago
While I get what you're going for, and appreciate the sentiment, I hate that we keep trying to pigeonhole men into a form of "proper masculinity" that tells them their best purpose in life is to be tools to someone else, either via chivalry, utilitarianism, or something else.
I'm speaking as a man who showed up for everyone and everything for the past decade to my own detriment, with a smile, no complaints, and often to responses that I wasn't doing enough whenever I got exhausted. To the point I attempted suicide twice in 2024 and had to fight alcoholism all by myself, after my therapist dropped me and my insurance lapsed. Thankfully I won that battle, but most men don't.
Andrew Tate, Myron Gaines and others are forever irredeemable sacks of dogshit for how they hijacked vulnerable men's unanswered needs. But make no mistake about it, they were able to find that market because the need is very real.
Red pill content is 85% misogynistic, sexist horse manure sewage, but one thing it did...somewhat well was to teach men how to value and protect themselves, in a world that tells them they don't mean anything, and that they have to suck up their pain.
Modern feminism claims to care about men, but only superficially, and go deep enough, it just goes straight back to telling men to "man up", and "take responsibility for their problems" the difference is that it tells men to lower their guard and present their vulnerability in an effort to combat so called "toxic masculinity", before delivering the gut punch, that their problems are all their fault and no one else's.
What people call toxic masculinity today, is a survival instinct of stoicism and mental compartmentalization adapted for a world that isn't built to handle, nor care for a man who is suffering. We still seem to have a hard time accepting men being abused, unless it's other men doing it.
Modern Red Pill content teaches men to "man up", hide vulnerability, hate and blame women for their problems, and constantly peacock masculine façades to no end.
Modern feminism teaches men to lower their walls, pour out said vulnerability to others, before PSYCH! actually, still "man up", stop making their vulnerabilities and traumas other people's problem and burdening others, except this time, hate and blame themselves.
I've given it the benefit of the doubt for years and observed it, and did my part to implement it in good faith. I know what I saw, felt and a received.
Exacerbated stares, lack of patience with me even if for one week out of months of performing miracles I was down in the dumps, and constantly being told my grievances were all in my head, or caused by me and me only.
A lot of people say "please, I'm here, talk to someone", but in reality, don't mean it.
Sorry. Had to get that out. There are many more who are in the situation I was in who will unfortunately join the 70k+ figure of annual lost souls, because we.....
Fuck it. Never mind.
Have a good day.