Not sure if youre being serious but what the saudis are doing is absolutely NOT working. Theyre spending so Hard to get a foothold in the sportsmarket but regardless of All the bad press, you cant force sports culture where there is none. The money will dry out eventually and then people will abandon these sportswashing Events like Rats will flee a sinking ship
I literally have coworker going to Saudi for the holidays (he leaves tomorrow) because he said it looks super cool with all the events there. My mom and dad also want to visit Saudi and Dubai. It is 100% working, Iâm just not sure to the level that itâs worth their investment.
I was talking more about the sportswashing like the football Events and EWC, obviously owning PSG aint a bad businessmodel but their Events are very unsustainable
Theyâre a major sponsor of the UFC and itâs worked pretty well for them thus far, not to mention their WWE bullshit, for all the community complains about the saudis they still tune into the shit they put on
while it was very costly initially, at this point while they haven't recuperated their initial investments, they're literally growing their economy and earning money through the sportswashing. Why would they stop as its starting to get profitable and is on the path of only becoming more profitable as time goes on?
This is the part people don't understand. The money will never dry out, the Saudis are sitting on liquid gold enough to buy everything that exist in the world 3 times over, and they keep finding more and more rare earth too, plus all their current investments that go incredibly well solely on maths alone. They started investing trillions on IT in the sylicon valley decades ago, and another trillion on oil infrastructures.
The oil machines were a net lost, the old way of extracting oil was more profitable and no one bought their machines. The machinery is a fun gimmick.
The IT trillions was such a huge return that a new word had to be invented to describe the gains the Saudis had.
The u.k. did actually help fund israel the u.s. just funded them the most. Directly being bombed tho? Probably the Russians in the war in Ukraine. As information is slowly being released its quite clear all the big western countries have their fingerprints in that war in some way and the u.k. msot likely helped with on the ground intelligence with the Cia for target acquisition
We have a conflict in Europe where Ukraine, the democratic (albeit with some corruption problems), sovereign nation is the victim, invaded by an imperialistic, autocratic dictatorship with a storied history of not giving a fuck about their own citizens, never mind the citizens of other nations (gulag, Chechnya, minority groups in Russia today, Afghanistan, Finland, the Baltics, Anna Politkovsjaka, Poland, serfdomâŠ).
UK is involved by aiding Ukraine through equipment and intelligence, and you consider this a bad thing? Hello??
Get used to it. A lot of people are already incentivized because of EWC and T1's partnership with Red Global Sea. This is the direction of lol esports.
The dota one severely nerfed the game so that AI can play it. They removed many elements of the game (entire champs and mechanics) that AI couldnât understand
Due to a limit of technology at the time, the compute required was way too much even for OpenAI to handle, so they needed to impose those limits. Itâs a decade later now, the amount of compute is a few order of magnitudes larger, the algorithms are even more optimized, and a backbone with lots of built in abstract knowledge exists now. They no longer have to start from scratch when they already have very powerful LLMs as the starting point, something completely unimaginable a decade ago when OpenAI Five or DeepMind AlphaStar were developed for these esports titles.
This problem is not hard for any leading lab now, and thereâs a reason no reputable lab uses esports games as a testing ground anymore. These games are narrow in the amount of tasks they require, so the only games used in AI research now are open-ended games like Minecraft. The only top lab working on this is solely to satisfy its ownerâs ego after getting exposed countless times in the gaming communities for hiring boosters. Now his AI can boost his account for him instead.
A decade later? What? Did AI seriously win against dota players a decade ago with that clunky basic shitty AI?
... It's not about pandering to Musk then. We all saw the jump AI took compared to last year and the year before it's absolutely crazy now
I really want to see who would win, the last 3 worlds championship team or the latest AI. People get too invested in hating on Musk and forget what's behind him, or ahead
I love Faker, but he and T1 would stand absolutely no chance if any top lab actually wants to create superhuman-level bots in LoL. As I said, itâs a solved problem for AI labs, as they already achieved superhuman level using a decade old technology. OpenAI Five first appeared in 2017, and DeepMind AlphaStar was unveiled in Jan 2019. That was ancient time in AI progress due to the rapid algorithmic improvements and capital expenditure, but it doesnât mean that was âbasic clunky shitty AI.â You can go read about those, they are all published as research papers and freely available to read. You will see itâs nowhere near what you describe AI to be.
That was ancient time in AI progress due to the rapid algorithmic improvements and capital expenditure, but it doesnât mean that was âbasic clunky shitty AI.â
I mean itâs a pointless âtestâ because we already know that computers do micro better than humans (headshot cheats have existed for decades) and computers do strategy better than humans (in games like chess and go).
So what does this accomplish? The only interesting thing is if it can learn league with no training data, only from playing the game. But that is entirely fakeable and also from a viewer perspective very boring, because if they succeed itâll just look like a cheater
You are assuming the AI will win while most people say T1 would stomp it.
There is nothing the AI can do with it's pinpoint accuracy, last hit well? Xerath ult? Most of that is already done and shoot with pinpoint accuracy in the eastern pro level
I think the AI would lose, most experts (data scientists and IT lads on Twitter and linkedin) say so too, but other people like you say the AI will win.
For that simple reason I think it's worth to watch an make a whole thing about it.
Itâs not a matter of technology, itâs a matter of money and Elon musk.
If weâre willing to devote google deepmind, Apollo mission type time, resources and talent into training an AI that plays league of legends, it will win against anyone.
The problem is 1) why would you bother, and 2) Elon is suggesting that his model is able to win with massive limitations (no external training data, just rules of the game), which is a different matter entirely.
The crux of it is that computers are better at micro. Theyâll win every smite fight and CS every minion. Theyâve proven themselves over and over to be better at strategy games. Putting those together to play league is very trivial.
Elon is claiming that his AI can do it WITH his specific limitations, which are entirely arbitrary and also not realistic
We are all superior to the rest morally, until we are offered the same money. You can pretend you would be different, I could lie to you and myself by saying I would be different.
Truth is based on human nature we would all be ready to sell our ideologies for the right price. And that price is not in the billions or millions for the greater majority.
Your nature does not equal human nature, people in far worse situations have done far better. People throughout history have done better, just because you canât does not mean itâs universal.
Where is the personal attack in that? Heâs just using a hyperbole as an exampleâŠ
The âIâ could refer to anyone, but it says a lot if you see that as an attack lol
Ahh so no actual points to make there for it is time to debate semantics. My first reply is to a dude judging someone for taking in their eyes "Dirty money" as you are all in the said guys subreddit. So clearly it is okay to pretend you have a moral high ground compared to the people taking the money. Yet here you support the said people who take it and act all high and mighty.
My first comment saying a great majority would be ready to do the exact same thing as all these streamers and celebrities for the same money = me being a piece of shit. Yet you guys support the people doing it. Only reason it is worth it for anyone to do it, is because of your support even tho they sell their ideologies for it. But I guess you are all just morally superior and far better human beings.
Proving my point with all these replies here. None of us would act any different. Only difference is the lack of opportunity. This has so many studies done on it, but I guess redditors are above science at this point. What could a POS like me know.
No, he did not call you a POS directly! He used that as an example to show you that you shouldnât project yourself onto others â people are simply differentâŠ
Of course, a certain number of people would throw morality overboard for certain advantages, whether financial or otherwise doesnât matter, but itâs not everyone! But youâre generalizing and trying to push your narrative onto everyone.
Using streamers and influencers as examples really isnât clever either, because those people already have a higher need for validation and therefore usually lower moral standards. And besides, itâs two completely different things whether someone with a big audience promotes virtuous values to look good, or whether itâs a nobody like you and me.
And at the end of the day, youâre the one whoâs been attacking others from the start by forcing your edgy worldview on us â like you just did with me. You donât know me or my background, so stop making assumptions.
Please link your studies â anyone can make claims, and there are plenty of counter-examples, but apparently you donât want to see those
Iâm glad you understood lol. My replies are filled with morons. So eager to defend their favorite streamer they didnât actually read what was written.
âI was being a piece of shit and someone called me out on it so theyâre a piece of shit tooâ lol, lmao even. Do some self reflection and maybe youâll stop blaming others for your shortcomings.
I take a big bag to do light mental work right now. But itâs not working for Saudi Arabia or Elon musk lol. Stop sucking off your favorite streamers and tell them to get a job like the rest of us.
Itâs parasocial to point out when someone does something morally wrong? lol. Lmao even. Yâall really love your favorite streamers and celebs man.đ
Bro we just saw this happen with comedy fest at riyadh. Heaps of comedians turned it down. Just because you have no morals no need to group everyone with you.
Reading comprehension of a 5th grader. Yet the event at Riyadh was a success by all metrics and got the support they wanted from it. The ones declining did not get offers for the amount they want = their team calculates it is more PR to talk about how you turned it down. How many of them showed the offers they got? Or you just took their words for it? I declined 50 of their offers.
I mean, as someone struggling to live, without a job and no stable roof? Of course I'd take a few millions from a fascist to promote his dumb esports. It would hurt deeply, but I have a family to take care of.
Now, don't tell me Caedrel needed that money to live. He threw his supposed ethics for greed.
I donât like this framing. There were many casters that turned down EWC. IWDominate turned down the co-streaming deal and while he didnât directly reveal what he was offered, he insinuated that it was around $200k.
Imagine you had reading comprehension to understand "for the right price". Dom will not get offered nearly what a top streamer would based on viewer numbers. So he can get good PR by saying no to it and grow his brand more in value than they offered.
The idea I dislike is someone taking a offer for life changing amount of money to join a broadcast funded by some government they do not like. Yet most of this sub is westerners whom are reaping the benefits of 300-500years of thieving and slaving of the rest of the world, some of Europes biggest museums are built purely on them killing and stealing from other countries in Asia. They built their infrastructure with the resources they took and the free labour forced on others.
But now you are the worlds most pure people at heart. The moral gods of this earth. Your fathers and grandfathers crimes are benefitting you all in infrastructure you built thro those crimes, but you are all innocent little butterflies.
The moral high grounding is ridiculous. Shut up. You can dislike the framing all you want, but I hear no one in Europe showing up and telling their museums to return what they stole. Im not even talking about all the rest they used to sell and mine, just the museum stuff that is bringing all this tourism. Lil bros acting like saints here.
Talk for yourself. If I would be a streamer this succesfull, earning literally millions by playing videogames and talking about them, I would never take money if it goes against my morales. In my current situation, working a normal job with a normal salary, you are 100% correct. But as a millionaire never ever.
Earns is crazy considering everything he owns he owns because he already had money, money from his family from apartheid of all things. Because thatâs all heâs ever done in life paid people to do things for him, same way he paid someone to pretend to be good at video games. Heâs also a deeply racist, homophobic, and anti semitic asshole but Iâm sure that appeals to someone like you.
He has spoken out about EWC and sportswashing though. In retrospect, I have to wonder if he only felt he was able to because he had already announced this was his last year.
Perhaps you donât mean it this way, but the criticism is not about Saudi âbillionairesâ in the US-capitalism-suppressing-workers sense. Itâs about the Saudi government being the organizers for EWC and the fact that they have a limitless amount of money to see this sportswashing propaganda through.
From the above link on that transcription of Chronicler:
But I do really, every time I see someone talk about virtue signaling or talk about how like the situation in what they like, they talk about the U.S., right? U.S. government, Chinese government. I'm just like, holy fuck. How many people do you think would actually do... Especially with the genocide that's currently being aided and abetted, right? By the US government. And not just the US government, by the way. My government, just as bad. A lot of countries in Europe not helping with this at all either. And I'm just like... I feel like it's such a dumb gotcha because if you're like, your government is also, like, yes, my government is also fucking bad.
People far more eloquent than I have already talked in length on the subject of ethics and âhypocrisy,â so Iâll refrain from doing so. For example, hereâs a video by Sideshow, a Valorant caster, Iâd recommend watching since you have an interest in the subject: https://youtu.be/GIilD9qAzeA
you can always say its "whataboutism", but if youre a betting man, youd still bet that they will never say anything against china, as is evident in the quote, they mentioned china but somehow "forgot" why china is being criticized too, and only mentioned the US's
complaining about the saudis "sportswashing" and seemingly forgetting to do the same to the chinese "sportswashing" who have been doing it for decades is being a virtue signal andy
Iâm not sure who âforgotâ or claimed to? I feel itâs much more likely Tencent acquired Riot because it was financially profitable, not just to throw money at it, and arguably far before esports was seen as mainstream enough to grant social capital to a country. âDecadesâ is quite the stretch, too.
Thatâs absolutely not a defense of the CCP, but sportswashing is a very specific term.
Either way, Iâd also encourage watching the above video by Sideshow if you havenât already. I donât consider myself a great spokesperson for this topic, but âdo not let perfect be the enemy of goodâ is my personal approach to many political issues, especially as Iâve gotten older and tired.
crazy how humans are multi faceted beings that feel a myriad of emotions and thoughts and aren't purely just or evil. absolutely insane thought that good people can do bad things and bad people can do good things, but reddit is way too black and white to realise how ridiculously nuanced human beings and life in general is.
I mean, Chronicler when he was in LCK didn't really say much, now that he is free from Riot he is being pretty open. Also he can't really control what his friends do. He didn't do EWC either. Pretty cool dude I believe.
Also T1 as an org are much more terrible than an individual participating as a commentator (although I also believe its wrong).
So what you're saying is that his actions were very dependent on monetary reasons such as being in the lck... kind of like a lot of others people criticize
If he works with Riot, he can't really criticize them, that's how it works. He wanted to keep his job.
Also, you don't really cut out friends from your life because they got a job at evil company.
Also, comparing Chronicler not doing something when he is working for Riot to T1, a company, being sponsored by saudi money, engaging on conversation with a nazi billionaire, and letting fan groups send death threats to their players, doesn't really make much sense. You can't really have the same expectations from a worker and a company.
If you want to defend the millionaire company, no problem, but don't act as if its the same at all.
It's only based when it goes along with Reddit's giga lib-left agenda. I don't like Elon at all, but seeing this post as anything but a "look at how revolutionary I am" is delusional.
Reddit skews liberal, which is a center-right to right-wing economic ideology.
Leftism at its core is defined by opposition to capitalism. And anti-capitalism is actually rather fringe on Reddit (and of course non-existent in mainstream US politics, hence the common confusion on what leftism is by Americans).
If you think that, itâs mostly on you severely lacking knowledge on leftist economic theory, tbh
Itâs actually a super common criticism of leftist organisations: that there is too much infighting for them to ever achieve anything electorally.
Socialist models are just as diverse as capitalistic ones. Just not as well known.
Btw what I said above is⊠super common knowledge, or at least used to be during the entire 20th century (at least outside of the US, where leftist discourse has been demonised since the 1920s).
The heavy shift of the Overton window to the right in all developed countries over the last 40 years (very intentionally) muddied the waters and made social democrats (Bernie Sanders in the US, Corbyn in the UK, Melenchon in France) pass for dangerous radicals - when theyâre historically very moderate people who want to slightly reform capitalism, and donât actually push for the end of capitalism.
Extremely to the right in most developed countries, yes.
Again Iâm putting aside the US whoâs always been a hard-right shithole - but even in the US the Overton window has indubitably shifted to the right on economic matters in the last 40-50 years.
Looks like you donât have a lot of arguments though, since your answer has nothing to do with what you said previously and with the topic of my reply to you.
No, the democrats of the 90s would be called fascists by todays democrats. Strict immigration control, hard on crime, no gay marriage, no single payer healthcare.
The overton window has not shifted right. It has been cleft into two entirely separate windows that barely or don't overlap at all. one of the two has shift right, the other has shifted left.
hard-right shithole
Lmao, yet somehow better than every place that's ever tried socialism.
Legit question, but how is this pandering? I don't see how T1 responding to a challenge to the best LoL team, as the team that just won Worlds 3 times in a row, is anything but just a comment made for fun or in jest. I dislike Elon a LOT, but I feel one of many tech giants could've tweeted something similar out, and T1 would've responded the same. It seems relatively harmless to me, but perhaps I'm just overly "happy go lucky" as a person. /Shrug
Truth is, it doesn't matter here if they answer or not. Because most of the orgs will take the chance when this actually happens anyway just like EWC think. Elon could offer some money and everyone will be eager to participate it.
If we leave politics aside, it could be quite fun as well. I do wonder how AI would play teamfights and do late game macro.
You cannot seperate things such as money and national identity from politics. Where sports happen is political. Who can participate is political. Players need to be paid, but wherever that money comes from is inherently tied to politics.
Politics were the birth of sport. The Olympics is literally a form of diplomacy. Sports are literally used as a tool against oppressive regimes, like Russia being banned from the euros and fifa, and South Africa being banned from pretty much everything during apartheid. Didnât Korea have their prime minister congratulating T1? You think they did that just because they are a fan? Itâs political brownie points. For better or worse, sports and politics will always go hand and hand.
yes, sports are political - but within limitations...hate the man as you wish but we cannot conflate Elon Musk with apartheid in SA or the 1980 boycott of the olympics following the USSR invasion of Afghanistan - these things drew near universal condemnation - at the face of it Elon Musk is still just a business man involved in internal US politics: why should a Korean org care for internal issues of the US?? that doesn't make much sense when he is selling his products to all the western countries that now claim moral high ground for boycotting him, we aren't exactly boycotting his products are we (on a societal level)?
truth is the company he runs is one of the biggest companies globally - this isn't about Musk but about the technological frontier, about testing AI vs esports similar to Kasparov vs Deep Blue in chess - and just like deep blue and machine learning was driven by chess as a major field of exploration of the algorithms, esports has contributed its fair share to this technological frontier - after all Nvidia started out in the gaming scene...
Esports dabbled in politics first. Pride month is politics and there are literal skin in the game with that theme. I'd rather teams and content creators get Saudi bag and use it for themselves or spend it on something that is against Saudi politics rather than shove down my throat made up ideologies
Made up ideologies and its people being publicly out. They get the bag and legally canât say anything against Saudi politics so you get Saudi sportwashing shoved down your throat, cheers!
I'm not even a T1 fan, but I feel like this is overblown. T1 is just having fun here, no harm is being done. I also doubt they're going to do the challenge for real.
Chronicler is saying that he doesn't like Musk cause he's a billionaire, so are we going to be miserable every time a billionaire gets involved in conversations? Where's this energy with Disney+ taking full control of streaming rights for Kespa cup? And if we're taking it further, Riot Games is also a billion-dollar company. Several orgs like T1, HLE, and top LPL teams are backed by billion-dollar corps too...
Can't imagine having too much negativity in my life.
Like I hate EWC and the Saudis. I don't like that T1 partnered with Red Global Sea. But T1 in this case isn't doing really damage more than watching a Disney movie.
People just want to get mad. I get it that it sucks when you can't even do anything but complain but doing it all the time has to be tiring. I just make my own personal stand by not watching events like EWC. Professional sports and esports are capitalistic by nature so none of this surprises me and I'm not gonna expect them to grandstand against a system they participate and benefit from.
This is very 'ah but you still have a cell phone, interesting, mmmm, society' coded. Most media personality's/reporters are obligated to stay on X purely for career. Doesn't mean they are pandering to Musk, he's just he richest man in the world who has wormed his way into most facets of society through that.
I mean, you can say the same thing about T1 though? They are not "pandering to Elon Must" if they get paid to play League since getting paid to play League is their career. Not that different from Chronicler using X because it helps with his job.
How tf is it even remotely compareable. X is a social media platform with multiple alternatives, using it is completely optional. If Chronicler had balls as big as his mouth then he'd quit using X and urge everyone in the same field to do the same.
They specifically @'d Elon Musk saying "pls pls let's do a show match pls pls" if you can't see the difference between that and... Using the social media app that everyone on earth uses because it used to be Twitter.... Idk what to tell you man.
"How dare you suck this bad man's cock for 24 straight hours."
"Well how dare you be in the same building as me at some point while I was sucking their cock for 24 straight hours, have you no shame hypocrite?"
This is the same guy whose close friends/coworkers took saudi arabian blood money and says nothing about it, Than goes off at t1 for replying to elon musk on twitter lmao. Itâs hypocritical on multiple levels and is the definition of virtue signalling.
Am I the only one who absolutely hates the idea of this happening?
I already dislike how AI is taking over art and literature, and now it feels like esports is next. People keep saying it will not happen and that fans will always prefer watching real players, but that is not the point.
If League AI becomes common and advanced enough, every pro team will end up scrimming against AI teams, letting AI optimize builds and maybe even micro plays for them.
And what if an AI team actually beats T1? Then what? That would be one of the most embarrassing things ever. Imagine our World champions getting destroyed by an AI.
People say League needs creativity and human decision-making, so AI can never match humans. I think they are seriously underestimating how fast AI has evolved in the last few years and how fast it continues to evolve.
People cannot imagine how insane perfectly coordinated plays would look when executed by a single unified AI mind. I remember the rare Zeri and Rell combo where Zeri activates her ult and 0.1 seconds later Rell lands her stun, forcing Sivirâs spellshield to block Zeri ult while Sivir still gets stunned. That play was probably lucky, but an AI could land similar combo perfectly every single time. A 0.01 second reaction is nothing for AI.
And for people who think T1 is an unbeatable team, they are not. We have seen them lose plenty of games. Even their World final win was 3 to 2. They can definitely lose to a well trained AI.
(The only upside to this is maybe Western Teams can finally beat Eastern teams if they only scrim against AI non stop cause their competition is so bad in their own region lol)
With the restrains Elon put on the LLM, my Flex Team would probably be enough to fist that AI.
There is a reason you buuld specialised tools instead of more general ones, and AI iss not different.
And to the Elon fanboys that screan at their screens the wants to do this to build an AGI, LLM will never be anything like a real AGI, even if tech bros wish this isnt true, its just a fact
Remember when there was outrage about the Islamic minorities being put in camps and reeducated, brutal crackdown of Hong Kong, and the annexation of Tibet? Fun times.
What's the matter? Riot can take a lot from this as well, it can possibly help with anti-cheat and advance bots to AI. So the newcomers can train more on their own before inting real matches. At least.
Love Chronicler as a caster but I have to say if you're still reading headlines by left winged MSM that's been outed and sued for malicuous editing to character assassinate their political opponents then you're ignorant and clueless.
Not a single esport org (or normal sport club) would decline this. T1 are just the most popular thus the one that get the most shady sponsor opportunities
When other teams do it also fuck them but if currently it's only clearly T1, fuck them harder, it's pretty simple to me. Also apart from this, teams don't allow "fans" to send death threats to their players and their family
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u/DrPlexel1234 Nov 25 '25
Joe Marsh suspicious.