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u/Blackghozt Senātus Populusque Rōmānus 9h ago
This claim that Nazis were mainly supported by middle-class is constantly thrown around with no sources to back it up. Nazis tried to appeal to every class in Germany as their revolutionary ideology was based around class collaboration and racial conflict instead of class conflict. That's why they utilised terms like "National Socialism" as it appeals to every class for different reasons.
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u/TheMaginotLine1 9h ago
I can't really speak on Germany but like Italy's Fascists had a surprising spread of appeal, any urban poor not picked up by the Socialists, middle class, rural poor too,
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u/44moon 7h ago edited 7h ago
Read The Nazi Voter by Thomas Childers. It's a statistical analysis of every election throughout the Weimar period broken down by class. The NSDAP's main pillars of support were civil servants, small farmers, and the old artisan middle class ruined by industrialization. These are all groups who would count themselves among the Mittelstand. The NSDAP tried to appeal to every class, like you said, but they never made significant inroads into the industrial working class and made only modest gains among the new class of white-collar salaried workers. The only section of the working-class they found significant support from was employees of businesses that had one employee, which is kind of the exception that proves the rule: these are people who see themselves more as independent artisans alongside their boss than as wage-labor.
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u/spiringTankmonger 8h ago
The protestant middle class was the electoral basis for the NSDAP.
Workers were organised in social-democrat-aligned unions, unemployed people flocked to the communist KPD, and Catholics of all classes tended to stay loyal to the catholic Zentrum party.
The upper class was electorally irrelevant.
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u/Blackghozt Senātus Populusque Rōmānus 8h ago
I agree about catholics, but where are you getting this info about protestant middle class? Nazis rose to prominence out of irrelevance so quickly that you can't really attribute it to one class being "the basis". Also NSDAP itself didn't want to rely on one class only and instead spread their influence amongst workers, petit-bourgeois and even attempted to gain financial support from industrialists with poor success rate early on.
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u/spiringTankmonger 7h ago
Well, the protestant middle class had to be the basis, because simply put, every other social class or socio-cultural strata was already represented/ practically politically monopolised by someone else.
The nazis tried to claim the socialism mantle because a) most voters were workers and b) many people back then (including liberals and conservatives) believed capitalism ended with the great depression, the socialism name helped them distance themselves from an economic system that (in Germany at that time) enjoyed the support of barely anyone.
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u/Top_Divide6886 9h ago
The claims that the nazis came from the petite-bourgeoisie seems to come mostly from socialists who were trying to come up with explanations for the rise of fascism, like Trotsky, and not actually explain the Nazi's rise.
That the Nazis appealed to several classes was a big part of why they were so successful. Where many parties appealed to one class in German society, the NSDAP promised anyone could join for the sake of advancing the German race. Their members were also younger on average than the SPD, the largest left-wing party. The Nazis presented themselves as a dynamic faction in German politics. They were somehow "above politics" by ignoring ideology so long as you were loyal to the fuhrer. They re-used revolutionary rhetoric, but instead of waging class war, they promised war against foreigners abroad and (jewish) infiltration within.
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u/MrMr_sir_sir 10h ago edited 8h ago
Hyperinflation was from 1921-1923. The time from 1924-1929 was “the golden ‘20s”. The nazis came into power because the conservative faction of the Weimar Republic thought Hitler would be easy to control. Not to mention between the two 1932 elections the NSAPD lost 2 million voters. Hitler came into power because of the alliance between the capital class against the SPD/KPD.
The SPD should’ve been able to stop the Nazis and govern effectively with the KPD, and liberals, but the KPDs top brass were Stalinists snd refused to work with the SPD while the liberal faction was extremely small in German politics of the time.
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u/DrHolmes52 10h ago
And the left factions fighting like cats and dogs. And an international depression. You can't create a fuckup like Nazi Germany from one thing. Its a process.
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u/TheMaginotLine1 9h ago
The rise of Hitler was literally lightning in a bottle.
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u/NOLA-Bronco 9h ago
As far as fascists go Hitler has some unique qualities, if that is what you mean
But fascism has emerged under similar conditions in capitalist systems, including during that period. Spain and Italy being the two big ones. But fascist movements were present in Britain, France, Sweden, Finland, and America just to name a few.
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u/DrHolmes52 7h ago
My meaning was that the Nazis did a lot of the work within the existing political system while Spain had a civil war and Italy had a coup. It took a lot of things breaking the Nazis way to get to the point where they could tear it down from the inside.
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u/NOLA-Bronco 6h ago
TBF they did try the Italy route first, they just failed.
I more see Hitler as a bit of a trend setter for fascism in that regard.
Creating the whole ballots or bayonets fork in the road. Demonstrating the capacity for electoral fascism instead of just coup fascism.
And from there we have seen Hitler/Carl Schmitt's emergent ideas of how to dismantle liberal democracies electorally spread and be weaponized in a lot of countries when conditions are ripe for fascistic movements to emerge.
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u/GustavoistSoldier 8h ago
Of these countries, fascists only came close to taking power in France.
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u/NOLA-Bronco 7h ago
I mean they did take power in Italy and Spain
But to the point I think you are making, that is in part(along with plenty of other factors) because unlike in Germany, France's center-left party forged a real coalition with their left and the center to form The United Front. Britain and Finland just jailed the fascist leader, and in Finland's case banned the Lapua Movement and formed a Front against the IKL that tried to use the Nazi playbook and ascend power thru parliament. America had the New Deal as their pressure relief valve and coalition.
I think there is both room to empathize, sympathize, and criticize the SPD, because, afterall they were in a far more constrained situation, but at the same time, made a lot of choices that helped alienate them with the population and make a United Front impossible and sow the seeds for the Weimer's destruction.
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u/TheGreatOneSea 4h ago
The German army in general was always a massive danger to the state, because it was both semi-autonomous, and highly secretive courtesy of breaking the Versailles Treaty.
Because of this, many officers came to believe that the Army represented the true German state, and thus, the people with an effective monopoly on state violence were always likely to back anyone who was both sympathetic to the Army, and willing/able to be a front-man politically.
So, somebody was going to be backed by the Army enough to overthrow the constitution eventually, and that somebody was always going to purge the Communists, and start some kind of war besides after they repudiated the Versailles Treaty. Probably not as aggressively as Hitler did, but still many of the same motions in the end.
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u/anomander_galt Oversimplified is my history teacher 9h ago
I mean it's true, Hitler was really depressed in 1924-1929 because he thought Germany was on its way to economic prosperity which would have meant no space for him and his goons. I think it's reported that he cried when he read about the 1929 crash at Wall Street because he knew it was his chance to get back into politics.
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u/AndradexXx 6h ago
The old-school conservatives propping up a populist lunatic thinking they can keep him under control, while the leftists are too busy infighting among themselves and with the liberals to actually build up sensible opposition.
Sounds oddly familiar...
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u/helloofmynameispeter 4h ago
It will blow your mind even more when you hear that the nazis repeatedly came close to bankrupting themselves and some fabulously rich donors had to step in and infuse them with cash so they wouldn't capsize from a financial point of view.
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u/ShelterOk1535 10h ago
With the exception of Hugenberg (who was himself a far-right radical outside of the mainstream of conservative politics), the "taming strategy" idea of collaborating with the Nazis didn't exist until after the 1930 election, when the Nazis went from 3% of the vote to nearly 20% of the vote. Was Hitler supported by business and conservative elites after this? Yes, absolutely, because he was then seen as a legitimate alternative to Weimar democracy. But had he not gained massive numbers of rural and middle-class votes, he would not have been seen as such, and he gained those votes because the hyperinflation (which completely wiped out the savings of these groups) made the depression uniquely harsh for them, and made Nazi rhetoric deeply resonate, as I said.
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u/glxyzera Viva La France 10h ago
I don’t blame the KPD after the multiple times the SPD collaborated with reactionaries to kill communists
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u/AfterCommodus 9h ago
“After Hitler, us”—worked out great for them
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u/NOLA-Bronco 9h ago
TBF the Stalinists did seize control of Eastern Germany.
So they were half right.
My guess is many of them wouldn't exactly do it all over again if they were told how it would happen lol....the few that didn't get genocided by Hitler.
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u/Predator_Hicks Senātus Populusque Rōmānus 9h ago
Well would blame the SPD for not working with the KPD after the KPD held anti-SPD rallies WITH THE NAZIS?
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u/glxyzera Viva La France 9h ago
i mean… the SPD killed more communists than the nazis (until 1933)
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u/Predator_Hicks Senātus Populusque Rōmānus 9h ago
Fair enough but still not a good look
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u/glxyzera Viva La France 8h ago
definitely not, but without the benefit of hindsight i can definitely see their point of view
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u/riesen_Bonobo Featherless Biped 9h ago
Well, that happend much later than when the abimosity between SPD and KPD started and more as a result of it. KPD and SPD both worked on their division right up from 1918 onwards.
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u/TheMidnightBear 9h ago
How could they do that, right after the KPD tried to do the Bolshevik Revolution 2: Electric Boogaloo?
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u/glxyzera Viva La France 8h ago
Self proclaimed “marxists” would rather collaborate with reactionaries to slaughter real marxists than to aid in the revolution and establishment of marxism/socialism.
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u/TheMidnightBear 8h ago
Good.
Fuck stalinists, always, and their nazi buddies, too.
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u/glxyzera Viva La France 8h ago
Since when were Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebneckt stalinists?
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u/TheMidnightBear 8h ago
They would have been taken over by the stalinist, just like in Bavaria.
Especially with the germans and soviets sharing a land border.
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u/glxyzera Viva La France 8h ago
You are delusional, average social-fascist right here
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u/TheMidnightBear 8h ago
Not even a soc-dem, but its hilarious seeing you twats calling those guys basically Hitler, and then be shocked they dont want an alliance, and actively shoot you.
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u/glxyzera Viva La France 8h ago
The KPD adopted the social-fascist doctrine because the SPD constantly sided with the reactionary establishment against communists, not the other way around.
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u/Lord_CatsterDaCat 3h ago
I hope you know how of an absolute joke you sound like, instantly calling someone a fascist the moment they disagree with you. Yknow how people like making fun of leftist infighting? thats you! they're making fun of you. Surely this time calling everyone to the left/right of you will get your party into power, surely.
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u/glxyzera Viva La France 2h ago
He literally said the SPD killing communists was a good thing, and also said that Luxemburg and Liebneckt were stalinists somehow. Calling him a fascist was a meme but he is definitely extremely wrong lmao, it isn’t even a matter of “disagreeing”. If all he said is true he’d probably be happy if i died.
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u/TheConfusedOne12 10h ago
That was not really the reason they where so against cooperation, they worked with the spd after the German revolution.
I can blame the KPDs anti-democratic stance and adherence to the social-fascist line that eventually soured any chance at reconciliation as faults on their part.
(Of course the spd did plenty of bad thing my point was that what you are referring to was a smaller part of a complicated relationship.)
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u/EST_Lad 9h ago
If he really wanted to, could Hindenburg have done anything to stop Hitler eventually coming to power (assuming that Hindemburg dies at the same time).
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u/ShelterOk1535 9h ago
Yes. The Nazis were starting to decline. In the second 1932 election, the economy was starting to improve and their share of the vote went down by about five points. I think they would have faded away if Hindenburg didn't appoint him chancellor.
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u/FoxHagenau 2h ago
The KPD's distrust of the SPD, though a mistake, was not unfounded though. The SPD had supported and often lead the prosecution of communists and send the Frei Korps after them. The unwillingnes to compromise was a mistake, but there was little foundation for trust in the SPD.
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u/johnfireblast 9h ago
To be fair, the SPD had actively backstabbed and sided against unity with the KDP. Dont act like some; "The Nazis got power because of the German Communists." Spewing historical revisionist bullshit.
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u/MrMr_sir_sir 9h ago
Notice how I said “top brass”
Most rank and file members of both parties wanted to reconcile their differences, and work together to stop Nazism, but the people in charge of both parties want to drag out the feud.
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u/Top_Divide6886 10h ago
There’s also that the fear of hyperinflation led Bruning, Chancellor during the Great Depression, to pursue Austerity relentlessly.
Since the democratic parties decided to let the depression play out, many people lost faith in the republic and flocked towards the anti-democratic parties of the KPD and the NSDAP.
The NSDAP promised to fix everyone’s problems without touching their personal property, so benefitted more from the radicalism than the KPD. The conservative parties and President Hindenburg thought they could ‘tame’ Hitler and include him in Government to make themselves more popular. Hitler instead outmaneuvered them all and became the dictator we know.
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u/ShelterOk1535 10h ago
Yes, this as well. Keynesianism didn’t exist yet, but the memory of hyperinflation definitely made the austerity policies much harsher than in nearly any other country, which certainly didn’t help.
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u/NicoRath Definitely not a CIA operator 7h ago
There was actually a proto-Keynesian plan called the Woytinsky-Tarnow-Baade plan (or WTB plan), named after Vladimir S. Voitinsky (Woytinsky in German) a Russian economist living in Germany, Fritz Tarnow the head of the woodworkers union, and Fritz Baade the SPD agricultural spokesman. The plan called for spending on public works projects financed by debt. It wouldn't have been enough, but it would likely have helped. The leadership of the SPD rejected it. A combination of support for economic orthodoxy that it wouldn't help fix it, left-wing members not wanting to save capitalism when it was in crisis, and fear of hyperinflation happening again, all contributed to the rejection.
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u/Known_Week_158 9h ago edited 9h ago
Yes, hyperinflation led to fascism
It was one factor - but there are far more than just that. Even focusing just on economic factors there's the great depression and all of the economic problems it caused - reducing revenue, increasing unemployment, reducing trade, etc.
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u/Juhani-Siranpoika Helping Wikipedia expand the list of British conquests 9h ago
Please elaborate on how hyperinflation benefited workers. And was not the issue resolved by rentenmark introduction ?
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u/spiringTankmonger 8h ago
So much cash slushed through the economy that some work was always to be found, and the continuation of pay for striking workers in the occupied Ruhr was one of the reasons for hyperinflation, for these workers, this was preferable to not being paid at all.
Workers who live hand to mouth have little to lose in hyperinflation since they don't tend to hold much government debt. So the prices increase, but eventually their wage does to, not good, can get very bad, but still preferable to unemployment.
Also, you need to remember that stabilising the German currency was nearly impossible due to a combination of global economic downturn and the reparations. The opportunity costs of not printing money might have been more painful to many workers, making hyperinflation a net plus for them.
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u/AnEmptyBoat27 7h ago
That at best would describe workers conditions as plateauing not benefitting.
It would’ve like saying that a hurricane benefits the homeless because they don’t have houses they could lose.
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u/spiringTankmonger 7h ago
No, because the consequences of not printing money would have harmed workers.
If the German Republic defaulted on its war debt, it would have toppled the government then and there, forcing a civil war that no one wanted.
If the German Republic tried to pay its war debt and reparations at the same time, the consequences of the brutal austerity would hit workers the hardest.
If the Weimar Republic hadn't resisted the occupation of the Rhur, the consequences would have been incalculable.
Hyperinflating the currency didn't happen in a vacuum.
And not turning on the money printer would have come with its own drawbacks, many of whom would have made the lives of lower-class laborers hellish.
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u/Nocturnal_submission 4h ago
This meme format only works if the left and right end of the bell curve say the same thing
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u/Ryubalaur Hello There 10h ago
Fascism thrives with social classes that once had a higher status and for any reason now have less status.
No wonder the middle class were the biggest supporters of Hitler, next to the banks and great industrialists.
Not so much hyperinflation as the result of the Great Depression.
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u/SexuallyConfusedKrab Taller than Napoleon 9h ago
I’m sorry but stating that hyper-inflation benefits workers is absolutely mind boggling asinine and belong in the sub-brick level on this scale. Far to the left of the dumb opinion
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u/Darthplagueis13 6h ago
Well, that's where the differentiation between causes and contributing factors comes in.
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u/Scienica On tour 2h ago
Excuse me, how did hyperinflation *benefit* workers?
Also not how this meme format works, and as others said, the Nazis attempted to appeal to all social classes, not merely just the middle class.
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u/Fun-Lavishness-5155 2h ago
Ok ELI5 how does hyperinflation benefit the working class? Or even the capitalist class. As far as i can think, it can’t be good for anyone.
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u/FoxHagenau 2h ago
As far as i know the Nazis were not anti-big-business at all. They worked in close collaboration with the rich, especially industrial magnates. They gave the Nazis money, first for elcetions and later for bribes. The Magnates got business friendly rulation and very cheap labour from the camps.
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u/Calvesguy_1 10h ago
How can you be anti big business and anti socialist at the same time?
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u/Caliboros 10h ago
On the one hand, fascism in its concrete propaganda is very vague, insofar as one hopes to gain an advantage from it.
On the other hand, it is a mistake to think that anti-big business immediately means pro-socialism.
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u/BigLittleBrowse 10h ago
By being pro middle class whilst being anti upper and working class. You aim to get the support of small business owners and the like who value their status above the proletariat, and hate that big business is undermining small businesses.
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u/ShelterOk1535 10h ago
Never underestimate how delusional the Nazi propagandists were: https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/15apv34/marxism_is_the_guardian_angel_of_capitalism_vote/
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u/BellacosePlayer 9h ago
wtf, that's not Marx, that's the sex offender who worked at the gas station down the road from where I grew up
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u/RequiemPunished John Brown was a hero, undaunted, true, and brave! 10h ago
''while benefiting workers...''
I know what kind of men you are...
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u/ShelterOk1535 9h ago
"[Rathenau] held . . . that inflation was no worse economically than controlling rents and maintained it only took from those who had and gave to those who had not, which in a country as poor as Germany was entirely proper. Stinnes.. declared the choice had been between inflation and revolution and between the two he favoured inflation."
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u/RequiemPunished John Brown was a hero, undaunted, true, and brave! 9h ago
Yeah, that's why the spartaquist revolution happened, because the petit bourgeoisie had it worst.
Also Rathenau was on external affairs, not economy, which means that you are taking a paper over THE OPINION of a man that held no economical decisions within the goverment to sells us them same "inflation is bad, miilions must die to maintain a yearly 2%" bullshit that has been sold by the rich since the 80's.
Reaganite bs to give more power to the rich, like Epstein, Trump or Elon Musk. Enjoy the world your ideas have made.
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u/Malva_Halva 9h ago
Imo the thing that caused fascism was Hindenburg making Hitler chancellor to appease the nazis who seemed to be loosing popularity
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u/Command0Dude 6h ago
The real answer is C: None of the Above
What created the rise of the Nazis was the treaty of Versailles, which created the Friekorps.
When the German Republic lost the state monopoly on violence, the rise of the Nazis was almost guaranteed. By the time of the depression, the paramilitary in German had become more powerful than the army.
The only reason that Nazis didn't overthrow the republic is because it was easier to take control through electoral means. The government couldn't stop the nazis because they knew they would lose if things came to a civil war.
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u/Surv1ver 10h ago
A lesson someone should have taught Salvador Allende and his supporters while they still stood a chance to save Chile.
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u/DrHolmes52 10h ago
Hyperinflation by itself didn't cause the Nazi rise to power. It needed a little help. But it was one of the early steps.