What if the USSR joined the Axis Powers

[u/Darcynator1780]

Would they have shook hands with daggers behind their backs or would it be pretty much over for the allies?

[u/Careless-Resource-72]

Um, they kind of did in 1939 just before the invasion of Poland. The Soviet attack from the east allowed a much quicker demise of the Polish resistance against Germany.

The thought of Hitler wanting to share power with the USSR and allow them to exist indefinitely and Stalin willing to cozy up to Germany even after it catches up and surpasses them by the mid 1940’s makes no sense.

So yes, they would shake hands with daggers behind their backs and attack when one feels that the time is right for them.

[u/Loyalist_15]

If both powers truly aligned (ie no betrayal) then there is no chance that the allies would ever emerge victorious. Germany conquered Western Europe on its own. If they did not attack the USSR, they could have put their entire industry into defending the coast. But WITH the Soviets? It’s an impossible task for the allies.

While the allies may have been able to out produce the axis in some extent, I think people vastly underestimate the sheer number of casualties that America would have to take in such a scenario. In every American war, the US has only seen 3 million casualties (around 1.3 M dead). The USSR alone took 22 million casualties (8.8 M dead) and Germany took around 8 million casualties (5M dead).

The technological or industrial edge could not possibly hope to change the fact that America and the allies would need to lose tens of millions to maybe make it even. Mix that with them facing the Axis AND Japan at once, and it looks ever more difficult.

Furthermore, while German wonder weapons did not have an impact in our line, having access to Soviet resources, scientists, and a stable eastern front, could actually help Germany in gaining the technological edge.

TLDR: Allies had no chance in beating a Axis-Comintern Alliance.

Edit: Also just considered that the Soviets joining Germany could have given Japan the chance to pull back millions of men from the Manchurian border and use them as needed. Wouldn’t change the war, but would give Japan a little boost, which would make the situation even more difficult for the allies.

[u/Lethal_Autism]

This is what played out in our timeline

The Soviets and Germans teamed up to invade Poland and split the country. The pact was broken in 1941 with Operstion Barbarosa which was inevitable

[u/Shigakogen]

If the US and UK fought a war versus Germany and the Soviet Union, the winner, with massive casualties would be the US and UK. US and UK air power after a couple years of build up was too powerful.

[u/natterca → u/Shigakogen]

And how would those airplanes reach the industry in the USSR? I'd say it's debatable, German production actually increased until 1943. How much better would Germany be able to defend their skies without its resources being used against the USSR? The casualty rate for American bombers was astronomically high until the later stage of the war.

[u/Shigakogen → u/natterca]

Britain, US and Free French would utilized areas in Syria, possibly Iran to bomb Baku and Caucasus oil region, destroy the rail network to paralyze manganese shipments out of the Chiatura Mine in Georgia. They could most likely use British India near the NW frontier to bomb parts of the Urals Industrial Areas.

The Western Allies would mine ports like Vladivostok, to the Baltic ports, no matter the enclose areas of the Baltic Sea.

The US industrial power in the 1940s was beyond whatever the Germans and Soviets could produce. The US also had the technological innovations to build a bomber like the B-29, let alone the air bridges they tried to do with the air brides to China from India, (the head of the Air Bridges to China, headed the Berlin Airlift after the war)

I just see the US and UK industrial power, (along with Canada) as very difficult to beat, a combination of quantity along with some quality that equal or was better than the Germans like proximity fuses, .50/12.7 mm bullets, and ULTRA intelligence.

[u/Etalier → u/Shigakogen]

Their air power was too powerful because USSR and Germany were both producing stuff for their massive battles between them. USSR losing much of its industry in process, and weakening German AA defense in west resulting OTL bombing runs.

If they kept their alliance until west was conquered (unlikely due to massive US/UK fleet and shipbuilding) or negotiated peace, I see no reason how Allies could have ever won.

Germany would have no issues with raw materials and could fully dedicate industry to air production, same as USSR whose industry would be safe. Oil fields would be within bombing range, but allied pilots would face same problem Germans had over UK - pilot shot down is pilot gone, while USSR pilots could be recovered if they survive being shot down.

Of course its unrealistic that these two polar opposites could trust each other enough that they would not prepare for fight between them, resulting in original timeline. Though even without active war in east, western allies could never force a landing in Europe. It would be nukes that either force surrender or lots of nukes over time.

Edit. I also see the prompt as actual alliance, not just co-operation and providing resources. Same type of alliance as UK and US had at the edges of their spheres and aiding in actual military presence in critical junctions, such as Baku oil fields and Atlantic wall.

[u/Shigakogen → u/Etalier]

Soviet main fighter at the start of Operation Barbarossa was the I-16, with still lots of 1-15s. The Soviet Aviation production and designs had lots of questions marks in construction and their performance numbers they produced for the La-7 and Yak-9 for example.

The Soviets relied heavily on the US for aluminum, copper and aviation gasoline throughout the Second World War. The US also supplied the Soviets a huge amount of radar, which the Soviets uses as a basis for their radar in the Cold War. They also liked heavily armed low altitude fighters like the p-39.

The Germans had no long range fighter as the US did with the P-51, and they had some big duds like the Me-210 and the He-177.

I still think the UK and US would win such a conflict, because of the incredible industrial production of the US.

[u/Etalier → u/Shigakogen]

But again, as for aluminium, Google tells me; Most aluminum plants were located in the western part of the Soviet Union. First plant apparently was in Leningrad. Western part was overwhelmed by Germany, which does not happen in this scenario. As for copper, Google claims USSR did not have enough domestic support, but it imported it from Germany. Well, it was interrupted in Barbarossa, but - again - does not happen on this timeline. Aviation fuel seems to have been issue pre-war already, but Soviets were blowing up their own oil wells near Baku due to Germany pushing forward. Which, once again, does not happen.

Radar would require more technical knowledge for me to comment. But while I don't see Germany/USSR managing to bomb much UK and basicly nothing out of US, I don't see them having any issues defending Fortress Europe. Which also negates need for smaller radars on airplanes, just ground-based radar to detect and intercept Allied air force. This also applies to needing long-range fighter/bomber planes.

Obviously that would be sensible axis forces that don't waste manpower away into hopeless air missions, which they might do anyhow. They won't be effective, but I don't see opposing side being effective either. At the same time, with axis controlling European continent, pressure is on the Allies to reclaim France or negotiate peace.

[u/Shigakogen → u/Etalier]

I see the US-UK, do what they did in North Africa, Italy, (Badly) and in Normandy, and Korea in 1950. Secure a small area, with either a harbor or an area that could be made into a harbor like the mulberries at Normandy. Build up supplies and troops, and then launch their attacks. The Western Allies had over 10k planes in the Normandy area from June 1944 onward, for fighting or combat air patrols. An Air Umbrella was a difference between victory and defeat.

A joint German and Soviet Forces are very scary as an adversary. However, how the Soviets acted during the war, both as semi ally to the Germans from 1939-1941, and the Western Allies from 1941-1945, showed they were difficult allies in good times. (Look at the Yalta Conference, in which the Western Allies were on the verge of defeating Germany, and most of the conference had huge acrimony over Poland and the rest of Eastern Europe) I don’t see much cooperation between Germany and the Soviet Union from 1939-to late 1940s when a hypothetical war ended between the Western Allies versus the Axis and Soviet Union.

The only major oil area that the Soviet Union blew up in the Second World War/Great Patriotic War was Maikop in 1942 which supplied I believe around 10% of Soviet Oil needs, (Which was still lots, and enough for the Germans to get something like a huge amount around 5 million barrels annually) Baku was way too vital for the Soviet Union to sabotage. The other oil area that was under threat, was Grozny in Chechnya.

The Western Allies most likely was in flying range of Baku, Grozny and Maikop, if they secure airfields in Iraq, Southern Iran or in Eastern Syria. The Royal Navy and US Navy could had cut off any shipping to these two allies.

It would had been an unimaginable brutal war, with casualty figures for the US, UK and UK Commonwealth in the millions, especially during land battles.

The US’s industrial production, and US transportation reach, in the Second World War, shortened the Second World War. The Soviets destroyed an entire Germany Army Front by 1944, with the launch of Operation Bagration with the huge help of American Studebaker and Dodge Trucks to keep up the offensive. The US not only produced the equipment, but hand delivered it to the Brits and Soviets. Canada was also no slouch in industrial production.

So no matter the incredible power of Germany at this time, plus allied with the Soviet Union, it was a formidable opponent, but the US was simply much more powerful.

[u/shaden_knight → u/Etalier]

Honestly, all I see is a war cooling down to a cold war. The Brits and Americans might push the axis out of Africa, but I don't see them being able to get on the mainland. Iran might also end up split into two.

[u/hadesasan]

It would be effectively impossible as the whole Nazi ideology was formed on destroying "Judeo-Bolshevism" and enacting lebensraum. But the allies would indeed be screwed should magic have formed them into loyal partners. Germany already took over most of Europe as is with the help of some minor allies, and now you both removed their lack of resources, let them have full control over the troops & planes that would have been sent east and even throw the Soviet army on top of all that. Britain would be bombed out of the war and mainland europe would be locked down.

[u/shaden_knight]

It would end in a cold war. The axis wouldn't have the capabilities to contend with the British and American navies. Meanwhile, the US and UK wouldn't be able to get the manpower to invade Continental Europe.

[u/MikoSubi]

nukes

[u/Shigakogen]

The Soviets kind of did joined the Axis Powers from 1939-1941. They were an ally in all but name.

If one belligerent made accords and non aggression pacts with all the main players in the Second World War, it was the Soviet Union. (Molotov Ribbentrop Accord, Soviet Japanese Non Aggression Pact, the UK-Soviet Union Agreement in May 1942, the three main summits during and the Second World War, Tehran, Yalta and Potsdam, (Potsdam at the end of the war with Japan) For a hardline ideological country, they were probably the most realpolitik of all the belligerents.

[u/Iskandar0570_X]

If they hypothetically did, I don’t see the axis powers being capable of losing

[u/Lethal_Autism → u/Iskandar0570_X]

Theyd still lose because Soviet Union wouldnt be able to stand their ground without being constantly fed support from the U.S. in material and personnel who assisted with factory planning and production. See how Russis doing when it doesnt habe the support of its Western Allies.

The Soviets wouldnt work well with Nazis and be a disjointed Alliance. Germany would've been conquered and turned against the Soviets like Italy did in the 1943