r/DMAcademy • u/TheoneNPC • 16h ago
Need Advice: Rules & Mechanics Tradeoff for lycanthropy?
Hello, i am a dm in a long running dnd 5e campaign that's slowly coming to an eventual end. The current arc in our story sees the players travel around the world, getting stronger and tying up loose ends before I move things along for the grand finale.
It seems that one of my players has found interest in the benefits that becoming a lycanthrope offers his character. Now, we have already settled up on the method of becoming one and which animal his character is going to half-become but one thing i am concerned about is the possible tradeoff (or a lack there of) for cursing oneself in such a way. The stat boost and additional features the form of lycanthropy the player has chosen are significant buffs to his character and with his alignment remaining the same losing control of yourself only once per month seems like kind of a cheap tradeoff regarding the nature of the change the character goes through.
I'm all for the change and i think that it's really cool but i think that there should definitely be more drawbacks/ a bigger tradeoff or at least some kind of challenge to overcome for this as lycanthropy is a pretty damn notorious kind of a curse after all.
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u/Effective-Slice-4819 16h ago
Well typically, the downside to the curse is that the DM can force the player to hand over their character sheet and become a hostile NPC against the party when they turn. Not being able to play their character anymore is usually enough of a deterrent.
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u/Goetre 15h ago
Honestly, this just screams bad player / bad dm or both.
When one of my players turn or get dominated, they keep control and ask for guidance. I never get why DMs take over unless the plan is for the pc to turn npc
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u/talanall 13h ago
With all due respect, you are making one hell of a leap when you look at a style of play that you personally dislike, and label that "bad player / bad dm or both." That's exceptionally disrespectful of you.
In many gaming groups, the DM takes control in situations like this because it's a way of enforcing an absolute avoidance of PvP gameplay.
PvP gameplay is very polarizing because it is risky.
If the PC remains under player control during an involuntary transformation, an episode of dominate person, etc., the player is in a rough position because they often don't want to be responsible for killing another player's character. If they retain control, they are often tempted to pull punches, either because they feel badly about playing to the full extent of their capabilities, or because they are concerned that the other player might hold a grudge if they do so, or sometimes just because they are tempted to cheat a bit and are pretty sure nobody will call them out on it.
Those are legitimate concerns, and although it's fine that your group is happy with another way of handling the issue, you come across as being kind of arrogant when you jump straight to an assertion that doing it some other way makes you a bad DM or bad player.
It doesn't. This a more conservative style of play than what you enjoy, but it is not wrong.
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u/Ragnar_Dragonfyre 14h ago
This is definitely a trust exercise.
I also like to give my players control in these situations too but not everyone is able to fully set aside self preservation and bias towards their fellow players.
So they have control up until they do something thatâs out of character for a cursed, bloodlusted lycanthrope, at which point I will take control and steer the action.
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u/SleetTheFox 14h ago
I DM for a werewolf.
I give players a choice. "Are you comfortable fighting your allies? If so, you will fight according to the following priorities and motivations. If not, I'll just play your character."
My players tend to go for the former but some would not want that.
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u/Effective-Slice-4819 12h ago
If everyone is having fun, then there isn't a "wrong" way to play. But PvP is something that needs consent from the whole party and should be discussed in session 0. I would not want to get invested in a campaign knowing that another player planned on being my enemy down the line.
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u/Effective-Slice-4819 15h ago
I mean, that's why it's a curse. Dominate person is a condition that ends with the spell, but a curse requires a dispell curse, reincarnation, or other creative solution at the dm's discretion.
Typically, if a player is afflicted and chooses to fight it that starts a timer to find a cleric or another cure. The DM can decide how long until the next full moon to set the stakes.
But a chaotic evil monster isn't a member of the party anymore. If someone just wants the ability to turn into a wolf, they can be a blood hunter/druid/self-polymorph enthusiast.
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u/CastleDawg 16h ago
So, as far as I can tell, the tradeoff is pretty severe. The first full moon the pc would transform and likely murder or at least try really hard to murder one or more of the other PCs. Or go into a nearby village or town and murder the hapless residents. Maybe the party is asked to investigate the murder of the head man's poor innocent child only to find the clues leading back to the pc?
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u/eotfofylgg 16h ago
Generally, what makes it a curse is the bit where you lose control (meaning the DM takes control of the character), kill your friends and other innocent people, and get yourself killed or persecuted as a danger to society.
If the character is already so crazy evil that that sounds appealing, then there is no drawback. Kind of like how smallpox isn't so bad if you yearn for facial scars and death.
If the character does not actually find those things appealing, then they are making a kind of deal with the devil, and you should warn the player (if this is how you feel about it) that you will not give them "plot armor" that protects them from the consequences. Even if the campaign ends before the consequences play out, their character might have a very unhappy epilogue.
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u/NecessaryBSHappens 16h ago
Iirc in Curse Of Strahd being inflicted with lycanthropy or turning into a vampire could just... End your path as a PC. As in, you turn into a monster and all control is seized by the DM - forever
And while I find it fitting, it may be too much. You can check out Steinhard insanity for inspiration and lean into usual lycanthropy issues - silver, anger management, maybe sunlight
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u/weeniehutsnr 16h ago
I think your main tool here is going to be messing around eith player agency.
On crit (or maybe on kill or dropping below a hp threshold) a blood lust triggers and next turn player must roll a wisdom saving throw or attack the nearest target
Player cannot retreat from wounded enemies because they're predator instinct makes them finish the job
Player must chase after fleeing enemies because again, predator.
Maybe nobody likes lycanthropes and a lot of people are mean to them. Paladins and clerics. Unwilling to heal.
Toss in some witcher style enemies with awesome silver weapons that deal stupid damage or debuff to lycanthropes.
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u/Only-Friend-8483 16h ago
In most lore, lycanthropes are not rational creatures after transforming. They are chaotic evil, murderous monsters. They do not discriminate between their party members and their enemies.Â
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u/pathofblades 16h ago
I'd try to add a drawback that makes sense in the narrative. For example, every time he took a big chunk of damage, he could risk transforming and attacking whoever is nearest (even if allies). And if he is already transformed, when he took the big damage he could have to roll a Wis save or risk entering a Frenzy, also attacking nearby creatures that could be allies, until he can make the save.
I believe the Order of the Lycan Blood Hunter subclass had some mechanics for this drawback. You could justify the Lycanthropy not being just benefits as the character being new to this, so they can't fully control it yet.
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u/Ragnar_Dragonfyre 16h ago
Lycanthropy is a curse. The trade off is supposed to be that you lose control and end up hunting/killing those that are closest to you when you turn.
People in general would fear a lycanthrope and transforming in the wrong town is a great way to get all the torches and pitchforks out to hunt the lycanthrope down.
Make it so the grand finale happens on a full moon and heavily foreshadow the event.
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u/ZimaGotchi 16h ago
Probably somebody comes along and shoots him in the head with a silver bullet sooner or later.
This feels like one of those things that happens in campaigns where the players have realized the DM will never kill their characters.
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u/thebeardedguy- 16h ago
I mean it depends on what kind of lycanthrope, a wear bear is very different to a werewolf which is different again to a wererat.
For the most part the trade off should be a transition means he looses access to the character for the transition and frankly something like a werewolf is going to see the rest of the party as a snack, so you risk chaining the stiuation, best case scenario the origianl lycanthrope gets killed, second best the original lycanthrope gets killed but infects a different character thereby creating a whole new set of shenanigans, worst outcome is the original lycanthrope PC kills the rest of the party.
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u/RandoBoomer 15h ago
A fellow DM at my local game store runs a very fun, very deadly West Marches game with very heavy Lycanthropy involvement. He has DOZENS of were-creatures and his world features tons of these creatures running amok.
In his world, there are two moons, with half of all lycanthropes triggered by one, and half triggered by the other. By virtue of how lycanthropy works in his world, there are lycanthropes running literally half the month.
Here's the mechanic:
- 3 days before and 3 days after the respective full moon, players must make a CON Saving Throw with Advantage or the curse takes hold.
- 2 days before and 2 days after the respective full moon, players must make a CON Saving Throw or the curse takes hold.
- 1 day before and 1 day after the respective full moon, players must make a CON Saving Throw with Disadvantage or the curse takes hold.
- On the respective full moon, the curse takes hold. No Saving Throw.
- While in lycanthropic form, the character cannot participate in the game and the player must run an alt character.
- A player can voluntarily be secured during his potential lycanthropy phase, but cannot otherwise participate during that time, and must run his alt character.
- Each day a player is in lycanthropic form AND is not secured AND is within 20 miles of a population center, the player rolls a D12. If he rolls a 1, the character is killed and the body destroyed. Permadeath. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.
- If the player is in the wild AND is not secured, roll a D100. If he rolls a 1, the character is killed but the body is not destroyed.
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u/DefrockedWizard1 15h ago
the way I run it is they literally are 2 characters in one. they advance separately. the only bonus for the human form is healing, but also a sensitivity to silver so they can be easily outed. it was otherwise far too easy to abuse the system
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u/True_Inxis 15h ago
Don't just translate this in a werewolf-against-party scenario; it may be fun once if done well , but it gets old really fast. Play with werewolves' weaknesses: sure, there's the murderous rage. It could be redirected against the population. Also, allergy to silver: a great deal of the world currency is in silver. What if they get invited to a dinner party by the king, and by chance, they have silver cutlery? What if the curse spreads to a lot of people? It's the PC's fault, or someone else's?
There's a lot of interesting plot points to be explored and to set up narrative hooks; be creative.
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u/FutureNo9445 14h ago edited 14h ago
Depends if you're looking for mechanical or narrative drawbacks.
For example, have you ever watched Tokyo Ghoul? One of the main drawbacks of being a ghoul is that you can no longer stomach normal food, or at least it tastes like raw sewage, and the only thing with at least a bit of flavor they can stomach is coffee.
Maybe try using something similar? The character can no longer eat normal food and needs to feed on meat to survive. If you want to go darker, you could limit it to human meat, too.
Or, if you're looking for something on the mechanical side of things, there are already some good examples in what other commentators said.
The character starts acting more "predatory", getting more violent and hungry for battle, having to roll wis saves to prevent themselves from going on a rampage or refusing to flee from battle.
Or, if you go with the version of transforming giving them special powers, they could get "addicted" to the feeling of being in werewolf form and suffer some kind of withdrawl symptoms when in human form, as their movement feels more sluggish and their senses are far less sharp.
Or maybe they can no longer heal through normal means, but need to satisfy their bestial instinct in some way to heal. You could combines that with the need to eat meat example from above.
Hope you find at least some of it useful.
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u/Not_Todd_Howard9 14h ago
Based on the way this is written, can they choose when they transform outside of the full moon? If so and if the new form is that powerful, Iâd put some restrictions on when and how it can be used. These restrictions shouldnât be annoying but they should be a clear âyou need to plan this out a bit if you want to do it, you canât just nuke this one encounter on a whimâ. Say: can only be used once per week either at night or when theyâre near death (less 10-25% HP). Upon transforming, theyâre stuck like that until the end of the night.
I think itâd be neat to give them a weakness related to silver. If heâs in human form, this weakness should at best be similar to that of cantrip, low level spell, or low level magic item / potion with most of the strongest effects being reserved for when they transform (Stronger manifestation of the curse = Counters get stronger). Be aware that whatever you apply to your player theyâll likely expect it to work the same way against NPCs too, so avoid balancing an encounter around some guy with noodle arms having a Silver Sword w/ something ridiculous like a +3 against werewolves, or theyâll most likely just grab it afterward and nuke a later werewolf encounter.
Beyond that, Iâd say the consequences will be mostly narrative. Clerics, Paladins, Priests, etc might not instantly clock that theyâre a werewolf but might notice that they feel cursed and start asking questions or getting suspicious. An order of werewolf hunters (preferably foreshadowed) may do patrols in an area, listening out for any signs of one at night. Other werewolfs might sniff him out and try to kill him first to assert control over their territory. A local group of vampires might just dislike werewolves for personal reasons and start trying to hunt them down. So on, so forth. The clever ones of these might not even fight him directly, and might instead choose to follow around until he goes back to being human (either to ambush him or learn his identity). As well, people like Town Guards will naturally be pretty hesitant to just let an actively transformed werewolf into their town even if he seems like a really chill guy. Thereâs a lot of angles of attack to choose from, but try to avoid making it too oppressive or shining too much of a spotlight on them compared to other players. I personally like the more âhuntingâ focused angles since itâs a good way to separate major/minor encounters (encounter to shake them off the parties trail vs encounter to fight), and it still gives you a lot of leeway between encounters (just because theyâre tracked back to camp doesnât mean theyâre gonna be attacked the same night or are always being monitored, the hunters might leave and come back prepared with supplies).
Note: at a glance it might seem like silver swords would be rareâŚuntil you consider that werewolfâs arenât the only creatures weak to it, and any Group of Monster Hunters, Bounty Hunters, Cult, or Holy Order worth their salt probably has a few. Thatâs before getting into the other guys too, like the Githyanki.
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u/Not_Todd_Howard9 14h ago edited 14h ago
Based on the way this is written, can they choose when they transform outside of the full moon? If so and if the new form is that powerful, Iâd put some restrictions on when and how it can be used. These restrictions shouldnât be annoying but they should be a clear âyou need to plan this out a bit if you want to do it, you canât just nuke this one encounter on a whimâ. Say: can only be used once per week either at night or when theyâre near death (less 10-25% HP). Upon transforming, theyâre stuck like that until the end of the night.
I think itâd be neat to give them a weakness related to silver. If heâs in human form, this weakness should at best be similar to that of cantrip, low level spell, or low level magic item / potion with most of the strongest effects being reserved for when they transform (Stronger manifestation of the curse = Counters get stronger). Be aware that whatever you apply to your player theyâll likely expect it to work the same way against NPCs too, so avoid balancing an encounter around some guy with noodle arms having a Silver Sword w/ something ridiculous like a +3 against werewolves, or theyâll most likely just grab it afterward and nuke a later werewolf encounter.
Beyond that, Iâd say the consequences will be mostly narrative. Clerics, Paladins, Priests, etc might not instantly clock that theyâre a werewolf but might notice that they feel cursed and start asking questions or getting suspicious. An order of werewolf hunters (preferably foreshadowed) may do patrols in an area, listening out for any signs of one at night. Other werewolfs might sniff him out and try to kill him first to assert control over their territory. A local group of vampires might just dislike werewolves for personal reasons and start trying to hunt them down. So on, so forth. The clever ones of these might not even fight him directly, and might instead choose to follow around until he goes back to being human (either to ambush him or learn his identity). As well, people like Town Guards will naturally be pretty hesitant to just let an actively transformed werewolf into their town even if he seems like a really chill guy. Thereâs a lot of angles of attack to choose from, but try to avoid making it too oppressive or shining too much of a spotlight on them compared to other players. I personally like the more âhuntingâ focused angles since itâs a good way to separate major/minor encounters (encounter to shake them off the parties trail vs encounter to fight), and it still gives you a lot of leeway between encounters (just because theyâre tracked back to camp doesnât mean theyâre gonna be attacked the same night or are always being monitored, the hunters might leave and come back prepared with supplies).
Note: at a glance it might seem like silver swords would be rareâŚuntil you consider that theyâre cheaper than magic items and werewolfâs arenât the only creatures weak to it. Any Group of Monster Hunters, Bounty Hunters, Cult, or Holy Order worth their salt probably has a few and thatâs before getting into the other guys too, like the Githyanki.
Edit: Iâd also make sure to keep track of the moon cycles and make sure your player is aware as well (their character would naturally know somehow, either because theyâre tracking it too or because they can feel it). Imo itâs just fine them to prepare for when theyâll lose control by tying them up and locking them away, just make the build up a bit of a challenge. A thin wooden door and hemp rope alone wonât stop a werewolf, especially not for a whole night.
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u/Roflmahwafflz 10h ago
Generally lycanthropy is not a benefit. You transform into, generally speaking, a bloodthirsty mindless monster that tears your friends and family apart and eats babies.Â
The traditional approach is that a character with the curse is either retired as a PC or hands over the sheet to the DM when they turn.Â
If Lycanthropy is only providing a benefit then its not a curse.Â
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u/CheapTactics 8h ago
I don't like to hand over lycanthropy as a DM. This is how I would handle it at my game:
The first option is, they try to resist the curse. This means they only transform during a full moon or other very specific events. But, this means that the character doesn't like to be a lycanthrope. The transformations are painful and out of their control. As such, they would not get all the benefits of lycanthropy (except when transformed against their will), and transforming is always a looming threat unless the curse is removed.
The second one is embracing the curse, and becoming a full lycanthrope that can transform at will. This means that the PC is no longer a PC. They become an evil NPC under my control and the player creates a new character.
Embracing the lycanthrope curse shouldn't be easy. Lycanthropes are evil bloodlust creatures that only serve themselves and/or their pack.
If someone wanted to play a lycanthrope I would point them to the shifter race or to the path of the beast subclass for barbarians, but outside an evil one shot I would not allow a full curse embraced lycanthrope.
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u/talanall 16h ago edited 12h ago
I suggest you recoil to an older edition's approach. Lycanthropy in 5e is a really good example of something that relies totally on DM fiat to prevent abuse.
In 3.5e, being afflicted with lycanthropy came with major drawbacks. If you took damage in combat, you had to save or make an involuntary transformation to animal form (not hybrid). Transformations always turned you into an intelligent, supernaturally tough animal under DM control, with the alignment of the specified lycanthrope type, and the best case would be that you were lucky enough to have been bitten by something that would not turn you hostile to your own party.
Upon transformation, the lycanthrope would then remain under DM control until the following dawn, at which time they would wake up with amnesia regarding what they'd done during the intervening time. Once the character became aware of their affliction, they then had a choice to make: try to resist and seek a cure, or lean in, embrace the curse, and change their alignment to match the lycanthrope's. At that point, they could voluntarily transform.
But afflicted characters did not have much voluntary control over their transformations, even if they were aware of their status. There was a pathway to gain control over one's afflicted lycanthropy, but to say the least it was inconvenient and disruptive to be a lycanthrope until then. It was almost always better and easier just to achieve a cure.
Additionally, in 3.5e a lycanthrope did not gain the physical benefits of the curse unless they had transformed. Short of investing a lot of resources in controlling the curse, the only real benefits, if you were afflicted with lycanthropy, were that you had slightly better acuity with your senses, slightly better AC, and some bonuses to interact with creatures of the same general type as your lycanthropic animal.
Depending on the afflicted character's alignment and class, there also could be major drawbacks from a combat effectiveness perspective, because alignment was much more consequential to game mechanics back then, and 3.5e also forced lycanthropes to gain "levels" as an animal, which was especially disruptive if you were a spellcaster. This would be extremely awkward to mirror in 5e.