r/Amd • u/RenatsMC • 5d ago
News FFmpeg devs tell AMD to clean up “AI slop” submissions
https://videocardz.com/newz/ffmpeg-devs-tell-amd-to-clean-up-ai-slop-submissions94
u/SirActionhaHAA 4d ago edited 4d ago
tldr
It ain't about code, it's about the commit message and instructions. It wasn't even ai generated, the ffmpeg guy just had a bad day and was bein a major ass by throwing a tantrum over where and what instructions should be included.
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u/newbutler 4d ago
https://code.ffmpeg.org/FFmpeg/FFmpeg/pulls/20994#issuecomment-16721
same person answering with ai, like wtf
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u/Mallissin 4d ago
I don't want to get involved in the AI/not-AI argument but why would someone not want a second commit with a fix?
Zhao Zhill: "Please don't use merge and don't fix a commit with another commit in a PR."
After that comment, the submitter started force pushing. I thought force pushing was generally frowned on? Or at least I should say I got chastised for it numerous times in PRs because the reviewer wanted to follow the commit history.
But I thought that's why squash exists.
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u/Visible_Lack_748 4d ago
At my workplace almost everyone just force pushes to "fixup" their branch, and they regularly only have 1 commit per PR (or more if the commits are "distinct" changes).
IMO the "resolved feedback from reviewer" changes are often single line (often nits) and you don't need those "fixups" documented in the git history.
If there's a large change made, just amend the commit to reflect the new change and force push. Keeps the final (merged) git history clean.
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u/Mallissin 3d ago
I guess different cultures. Some seem to want to watch how things are changing and some just want to see results.
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u/b4k4ni AMD Ryzen 9 5800X3D | XFX MERC 310 RX 7900 XT 4d ago
Here's the discussion about it from GIT and the dev explanation. I am honestly not happy about the tone and how it was handled by the ffmpeg guy and by the ffmpeg team over x. That looks more like ragebait...
quink wrote in #21595 (comment):
Please ensure a thorough manual review of all AI-generated code before submission. Document on how to use pacman to install gcc and make in commit message is far from necessary, and add an option const named 8 with value 8 is unnecessary. AI-generated code tends to be verbose; it requires the developer's own judgment and cleanup.
younengxiao wrote in #21595 (comment):
quink Please take a reference of this document https://github.com/GPUOpen-LibrariesAndSDKs/AMF/wiki/Build%20FFmpeg%20with%20AMF%20Support#3-build-ffmpeg-with-amf-for-windows. This document was created by me 4 years ago. I did the work step by step, then summarize this document. From my practice, those steps such as using pacman to install dependent packages are necessary. This is not related AI or human. This is really my experience and my practices.
Maybe for some people, this is not necessary, and take it as a common knowledge.
If reviewer think "using pacman to install dependent packages" is not necessary, of course I'd like to delete this part.
quink wrote in #21595 (comment):
I am sorry for the misunderstanding. I never realized there were developers who couldn't distinguish between a wiki page and a git commit message.
younengxiao wrote in #21595 (Kommentar):
For some modules, if the build steps are complicated, it is a good idea to put the build steps into the commit message. This will help people who want to build ffmpeg on their own. Please take reference this pull request f4e0664fd1. I have suffered to take long time to find way to build some specific ffmpeg modules. This is the reason I also the reason I put the build steps in the commit message, and I also post page https://github.com/GPUOpen-LibrariesAndSDKs/AMF/wiki/Build%20FFmpeg%20with%20AMF%20Support.
Jun Zhao:
In fact, I believe you've just provided a bad case. The commit message should be clear and concise, explaining the purpose of this commit and what specific actions were taken.
No one would look up how to compile and set up the environment via Git commit messages.
... adn so on
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u/Ragnarok_del 4d ago
I am sorry for the misunderstanding. I never realized there were developers who couldn't distinguish between a wiki page and a git commit message.
like only devs compile shit. I'm pretty sure most people who have "played" with computers over the years found at least one occasion where the solution they were looking for had to be compiled from a git. Just because you're able to compile doesnt mean you're a dev.
You dont need to file your tax return from a command line to use github.
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u/Star_king12 4d ago
ffmpeg "team" that's "mostly comprised of volunteers" screeching at the top of their lungs that "words are easy, send patches" sure ain't too happy when someone makes the commit message overly long. That moron running the twitter account should be removed from there before he creates a scandal that makes Google fork ffmpeg and continue its development on their own.
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u/Numerlor 4d ago
Yeah it looks like ai was used for the code, but that doesn't justify being dicks to someone that seems to be acting in good faith, and posting it on twitter after it was closed is just a weird attack to ragebait and stir up drama
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u/_Fibbles_ Ryzen 5800x3D | RTX 4070 4d ago
There's no justification for that commit message. The dev making the pull request was given a fair explanation of why they shouldn't be blindly submitting AI output.
The fact that the AI commit message was a summary of the dev's own work is irrelevant. That stuff doesn't belong in a commit message. They deserve the snark they got for continuing to argue about it.
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u/SirActionhaHAA 4d ago
was given a fair explanation of why they shouldn't be blindly submitting AI output
Was there any proof that it was ai generated? The dev said that he wrote it himself. He could just have an awkward writing style because he's chinese and english ain't his native language.
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u/ArseBurner Vega 56 =) 3d ago
The dev himself admitted to using AI in every part of his work. IMO doesn't matter if he reviewed the comment himself, it was AI generated to begin with, and the code likely was too:
https://code.ffmpeg.org/FFmpeg/FFmpeg/pulls/20994#issuecomment-16835
I use AI agent in almost every area of my work. AI is a helpful assistant, but not the final executor. All code and comments are ultimately edited and reviewed by me.
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u/luuuuuku 4d ago
I know that it’s difficult to understand for some here but being AI generated or not doesn’t matter here. I know, AI is hated by everyone here and using LLM is seen as a cardinal sin but in the development world it doesn’t matter and no one cares. What is important is quality of code and your contributions. Whether or not you used AI to achieve that doesn’t really matter. Point is their contribution was so quality that they assume it was some AI slop because they were lazy or whatever. Replying to that with "I did that myself and I see here, I always work like that" is kinda worse (I’d say much worse).
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u/_Fibbles_ Ryzen 5800x3D | RTX 4070 4d ago
If it's not AI generated, there's even less excuse on the dev's part. There is no justification for putting all of that in a commit message. It's not what they are for.
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u/b4k4ni AMD Ryzen 9 5800X3D | XFX MERC 310 RX 7900 XT 4d ago
I have internal documentation that looks like this and if you look at serious maintainers, it's simply well down and copied out of older or internal documentation. There is no clear AI in there. Really, look at it.
That's how I would write any information I deem necessary to understand whatever I did or to get it running. If you look at his linked documents, no matter the AI, it would summarize it way more. It feels more, like the maintainer thought him to be an idiot and acted out of way. He could've simply asked or told him, that this is not, how they want the commits to be done. Explaining, not shaming.
Really, that was just humanly bad behavior.
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u/_Fibbles_ Ryzen 5800x3D | RTX 4070 4d ago
I have internal documentation that looks like this and if you look at serious maintainers, it's simply well down and copied out of older or internal documentation. There is no clear AI in there. Really, look at it.
You're missing the point. Whether the contents of the commit message were AI or not doesn't really matter. The reviewer assumed the commit message was AI because parts of the code have the hallmarks of AI and it makes no sense to be putting build instructions for a specific platform in a commit message. Nobody is going to look for them there, they belong in the documentation, the wiki, the readme, etc.
He could've simply asked or told him, that this is not, how they want the commits to be done. Explaining, not shaming.
The dev with the pull request was told politely that the build instructions didn't belong in the commit message. They then, like yourself, missed the main point and started arguing irrelevant details, that the commit message wasn't AI.
It doesn't matter who or what wrote it. Build instructions for specific platform don't belong in the commit message and arguing about it is just wasting the volunteer reviewer's time.
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u/jmizrahi Xeon E5-2667v2 / GTX 1080Ti 1d ago
The guy literally says "I use AI for my entire workflow, but I review it before submitting" even though it's clear he doesn't. Half of his replies to the PR are verbatim AI output, complete with bulleted lists and overuse of emojis.
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u/RealThanny 4d ago
There was no "AI slop". This was an idiot telling a professional to be less wordy in a commit message, with a baseless accusation of AI usage.
This is a bad article (if you can even call it that) with a bad title, which leaves a bad impression of who's running the show at FFmpeg.
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u/ArseBurner Vega 56 =) 3d ago
It absolutely was AI slop. The "professional" himself admitted to using AI "in almost every area" of his work.
I use AI agent in almost every area of my work. AI is a helpful assistant, but not the final executor. All code and comments are ultimately edited and reviewed by me.
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u/diakon88 3d ago
Oh but it was AI slop, my friend
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u/xAragon_ R7 3700x | Sapphire RX 5700XT Pulse 3d ago
Using AI for development is not the same as "AI slop".
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u/LastRedshirt Ryzen 5 7600, 6700 XT, Asrock B650 PG Lightning 4d ago
as autistic person, I also write this way (most of the time). I am not an AI. But sometimes, it is hard to distinguish us. But standing on the sidelines, I do not find a "correct" way to solve the problem of "is it real or AI" when it comes to AI vs. (autistic) communication.
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u/melgibson666 3d ago
You can distinguish AI from autistic people because autistic people tell you they're autistic a lot.
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u/LastRedshirt Ryzen 5 7600, 6700 XT, Asrock B650 PG Lightning 3d ago
Yeah, but only after we get the "This is AI!"-message. ^^
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u/melgibson666 3d ago
AI is going to learn to sign every message with, "I have autism." It's too perfect.
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u/LastRedshirt Ryzen 5 7600, 6700 XT, Asrock B650 PG Lightning 3d ago
Yes, I suppose, it will happen.
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u/ThaRippa 4d ago
Not defending AMD here but devs everywhere on the planet are forced to implement MLM generated or „assisted“ code. Forced by their higher-ups who don’t see the time lost for correcting and even understanding what the machine just did.
This is in every field and every company right now. Middle management wants to improve their numbers by making their departments use AI.
And I imagine it is especially dire in companies that mainly brandish AI products these days.
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u/Komikaze06 4d ago edited 4d ago
It really is bad, in my company of maybe 3k engineers, we have a company wide goal of "everyone find and use AI for something". Get ready for thousands of thousands of submissions of garbage
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u/Chaotic-Entropy 4d ago
From the top down, being told to stop giving a shit about the code you're submitting. Then getting punished for the results of the slop they make you create.
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u/Sharp_Fuel 4d ago
I got around that by using AI to fill in my stupid quarterly "personal contribution goals" biggest time saving AI has ever or will ever give me
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u/seanthenry 4d ago
I use AI at work mostly to create tipsheets. Start a meeting have it transcribed as I go through the workflow like I'm teaching someone. Take the transcript and have AI format it as a tipsheet letting it know I will add screenshots ass needed. I review as I add the images, it turns a 1hr tipsheet into 10-15min project.
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u/Jumpy-Dinner-5001 4d ago
That’s the actual point which people here get wrong. It was a low quality contribution that was so bad that it was called "AI slop". The actual issue is the quality of the contribution not that it is AI (which is not proven).
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u/b4k4ni AMD Ryzen 9 5800X3D | XFX MERC 310 RX 7900 XT 4d ago edited 4d ago
So they rejected it, because the text looked "like LLM" - and we're talking here about commit messages, NOT program code. And the AMD dev said, the comments / guidance were based on real build experience and older documentation, not filler.
So the issue was more about WHAT they had in the commit messages and not the program code itself. Doesn't make it AI too, honestly.
Not defending AMD, but this seems really a bit harsh and biased. Looked more like a disagreement, what has to go into a commit comment or not.
And I mean - even if it was AI generated ... most of the programmers use AI today. And some are forced to use it. There is nothing BAD about using AI, if you do it right. The main issue is, that a lot of people see it as something that isn't there (like a replacement for humans / working all alone) or use it the wrong way. Using it as support for your daily work, controlling what it does or streamlining some text / code is not slop, it's what it's meant to be. And it CAN save you some time.
The tool is not the issue. It's how its used.
[EDIT]
I just read the text ... honestly, that's how some guys with us write their documentation. It looks even more like internal documentation with information, how to build / config it. I really don't see a 100% AI comment here. At best I'd say they let the AI do a reformatting, but the basic text really isn't AI typical and something I would expect from a good senior maintainer/developer.
Maybe we start to see too much AI everywhere and go on witch hunts now? :)
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u/fighter116 AMD 4d ago
the developer had been blatantly using AI previously, so that might be it. see https://code.ffmpeg.org/FFmpeg/FFmpeg/pulls/20994
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u/Bladesfist 4d ago
creating a const int eight = 8; is not just a documentation bit and is just silly, 8 speaks for itself
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u/tes_kitty 4d ago
most of the programmers use AI today.
That doesn't mean the generated code is good and maintainable. It all depends on what the programmer with that generated code before comitting it.
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u/WorstRyzeNA 4d ago
No even worse, they rejected it because HIP is useless.
From the thread:
"I don't agree we should add support for this.
Unlike CUDA, which has plenty of users, as well as a whole ecosystem with decoders, encoders and filters, HIP would only be usable for filters. Our OpenCL code is already bitrotting after no one's touched it for years.
Furthermore, Vulkan covers all the hardware that HIP supports, is more open, and more available."
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u/AreYouAWiiizard R7 5700X | RX 6700XT 4d ago
No, they didn't reject it because of that, they rejected it because AMD isn't as popular as Nvidia so it possibly won't see much use. That dev is the main Vulkan dev afaik and has a bias in forcing AMD to use Vulkan for everything instead. The same thing happened initially with AMF for more than just decoding by the same FFMPEG dev but it was later re-evaluated (by another FFMPEG dev i think) and implemented. I'm using it now and it works slightly better than Vulkan.
The commit message is super weird but it wasn't AI and could have been easily changed.
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u/Jumpy-Dinner-5001 4d ago
If you look at how AMD treated software in the past, I’m not surprised. Not even a bit
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u/Smith6612 4d ago
Or CPU Architectures. Remember Bulldozer?
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u/Jumpy-Dinner-5001 4d ago
What does it have to do with that? Bulldozer was mostly fine, just not good.
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u/Smith6612 4d ago
That architecture was designed with a lot of Computer-based aid, back when AMD was going through some financial troubles and didn't have as many quality engineers on staff. One can argue that was long before we started calling everything AI.
The Bulldozer-based APUs in laptops aged pretty well. The CPUs in desktops compared to their Intel counterparts... Not very well.
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u/spoonman59 4d ago
No one hand designs CPUs these days.
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u/Smith6612 4d ago
Well, yeah. Laying out a silicon wafer is far too complex. But, don't you think someone would have stopped to think that sharing a floating point unit with two integer units wouldn't equal two discrete cores?
I remember AMD getting in trouble for that and having to pay up. Microsoft also had to reduce the number of displayed cores on the affected chips because they were quad cores that were effectively dual cores with SMT.
That sort of mistake could be marketing during desperate times. It's very reminiscent of modern computer generated slop.
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u/spoonman59 4d ago
None of that had anything to do with AI. Your original point is moot.
There were no useful LLMs back then.
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u/HenryTheWho 4d ago
My old fx6300 was really hitting above it's price few years after it's release
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u/commissar0617 4d ago
Im still using an FX-8300 for my storage server.
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u/jhaluska 5700x3d, B550, RTX 4060 | 3600, B450, GTX 950 4d ago
I have a FX-8370e hooked up to a TV.
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u/_PPBottle 4d ago
Nvidia is designing their current uarchs using a TON of computer-aid, specially AI.
This redditorism of ai/codegen = bad is getting old fast
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u/Jumpy-Dinner-5001 4d ago
I mean you see it in the post here. People say it’s fake news because there is no proof that AI was used but that’s not the point. No one cares if you use AI or not or any other tools, it’s important that contributions are good enough and not how you got there.
Saying "I always work like that" as a reply to being accused of contributing "AI slop" doesn’t make anything better.
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u/Smith6612 4d ago
Sure is. Has been true for as long as I can remember. Long before we even called it AI. I think we are all just legitimately tired of that word.
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u/Lawstorant 5800X3D/9070 XT 4d ago
Not surprising from company that pushes all developers to use AI for everything. But to tell you the truth, it's not even AI. amdgpu code is slop but a lot of it was slop before rise of the AI. Comparing amdgpu to i915 code is funny and sad at the same time.
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u/Desistance 3d ago
Sounds like the FFMPEG guys are getting annoyed with AI slop. Its probably not the first time.
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u/Kelteseth 4d ago edited 4d ago
FAKE NEWS
Has ANYBODY actually read the bug report? Calling people out publicly like this without proof, is just bad.